For Book: Mobster Pistol in 1979

[TromboneAl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister One relatively common reason would be "limp wristing" the gun when firing. That means not holding it firmly and absorbing some of the recoil with your wrist. That can cause the action to not fully eject the spent casing, jamming the slide open.

Excellent, I think I'll use that.

[Car-Guy]

All semi automatics jam. Some more often than others. As a rule cheaper guns will jam more often than more expensive ones (quality) but they all can and will jam. I do have a couple of very high quality 1911's that very rarely jam. Some factors that cause jamming, quality of gun, type of ammo, shooting style e.g. limp wrist, poor cleaning, etc. And btw, revolvers can and do jam too, just not that often.

edit; I just saw the mention of limp wrist in an early post. It tends to be a bigger type of jamming problem with new/novice shooters.

[braumeister]

A couple of examples of that kind of jam:
pm2.jpg
pistol-malfunction1.jpg

[Car-Guy]

Second picture above is called "stove piping."

[calmloki]

Mobster might want an evil looking gun like the CZ-52. No kind of quiet though, but prone to jamming with the combination of old springs and ammo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeDh9e2ilkY

[ncbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr._Graybeard A large-caliber firearm would make a lot of noise and be hard to conceal. Here's a story about a botched mob hit -- one of the guns found with the attackers is a .380. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/08...6836397022400/ Google "mob hit" and .380.

IMHO, if the character's a professional hitman they'd be using smaller calibers than .45 or 9mm, e.g. .22LR.

Probably with a suppressor & sub-sonic ammo.

[razztazz]

As someone with a peripheral association with this stuff... A Hit man, especially back in the 70's would almost always use a .22 revolver held up against the customer's head. This would be something more like in the movie Goodfellas and not a James Cagney-style drive-by with the tommy gun. It's not sexy and very low tech. Makes less noise, leaves no spent shell case.

[braumeister]

I think one more point may be in order.
If you know what you're doing, it's easy to clear these types of jam. Takes about a second in some cases, as much as 5 seconds in difficult jams.

[ncbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by razztazz As someone with a peripheral association with this stuff... A Hit man, especially back in the 70's would almost always use a .22 revolver held up against the customer's head. This would be something more like in the movie Goodfellas and not a James Cagney-style drive-by with the tommy gun. It's not sexy and very low tech. Makes less noise, leaves no spent shell case.

And while a revolver won't jam, it could easily misfire.

Especially using .22LR (rimfire cartridges misfire more often than centerfire)

So if your storyline presupposes a malfunction you're not restricted to automatics.

Without a suppressor, a short-barrel .22LR revolver is also very concealable.

[Car-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncbill And while a revolver won't jam, it could easily misfire.

Absolutely incorrect regarding jams. I've personally experienced revolver jams over the years. It's very uncommon when compared to semi autos, but it does happen. Besides the occasional mechanical failure causing a jam, dirty revolvers can jam and other examples for centerfires are primers that are not fully seated can cause jams, a.k.a high primers, revolvers with very heavy recoil (e.g. 44mags) can cause the bullets to "pull out" of yet un-fired cartridges and stop further cylinder rotation. (usually due to poor crimps), etc. I'm sure I could think of others.

[38Chevy454]

Quote:

Originally Posted by razztazz As someone with a peripheral association with this stuff... A Hit man, especially back in the 70's would almost always use a .22 revolver held up against the customer's head. This would be something more like in the movie Goodfellas and not a James Cagney-style drive-by with the tommy gun. It's not sexy and very low tech. Makes less noise, leaves no spent shell case.

X2, this was my first thought when I opened up the thread. Small .22 revolver is easy to conceal, makes less noise and effective with less potential other damage.

[ncbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Car-Guy Absolutely incorrect regarding jams. I've personally experienced revolver jams over the years. It's very uncommon when compared to semi-autos, but it does happen. Besides the occasional mechanical failure causing a jam, dirty revolvers can jam and other examples for centerfires are primers that are not fully seated can cause jams, a.k.a high primers, revolvers with very heavy recoil (e.g. 44mags) can cause the bullets to "pull out" of yet un-fired cartridges and stop further cylinder rotation. (usually due to poor crimps), etc. I'm sure I could think of others.

but if the character under discussion uses firearms regularly they'd be maintaining their 'piece'

and if they're a pro hitter they're probably not using heavy caliber weapons & also inspecting their ammo before loading

though with rimfire ammo a misfire is plausible if needed for plot purposes.

[lwp2017]

Mobster hit man would use a stolen gun.
Hit man also may not be the sharpest crayon in the box

How about a stolen Raven .25 acp ( Saturday Night Special) traded for a bag of weed.
He uses a quart-size plastic Pepsi bottle for a single shot silencer, his friend Lenny told him about it.

Hold the bottle opening to the muzzle, it will work, especially with a .25acp

Pistol is a cheap, injected molded zinc POS and fails to extract and eject the spent casing after the first shot thus jamming it. Hit man pulls out his backup, a sawed-off length of broomstick to complete the contract.

Raven pistols were notorious junk. But they did have a safety and are semi-automatic. They existed in 1979.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_Arms

[TromboneAl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister I think one more point may be in order. If you know what you're doing, it's easy to clear these types of jam. Takes about a second in some cases, as much as 5 seconds in difficult jams.

Good. Just flick the errant shell out of the way?

Tell me what happens in the difficult jam.

Current plan:

(Female) Hero shoots at bad guy.
Gun jams.
Hero: Damn. Looks at gun. I limp-wristed that earlier shot. Stupid, stupid! Reaches down to clear the jam. Takes five seconds instead of one. Too late, bad guy is on her, kicks her hand. Gun flies away.

Or something like that.

[braumeister]

The usual routine is Tap-Rack-Fire. This YouTube is pretty good at showing how to clear them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxZy3Nd9zUc

Another reference:
Clearing Malfunctions

[cooch96]

I vote for a colt woodsman. Chambered in 22LR, manufactured from WW1 thru early 70s. Some models came with a factory silencer. I believe it was considered a rural gentleman’s sidearm, it’s certainly not blingy. But semi automatic; not loud, quiet with silencer and subsonic ammunition; and smallish so the mag doesn’t hold a bunch of bullets, but more than most revolvers. Also they tended to be well made and most models had adjustable sights.

Other common causes of jamming I didn’t see mentioned above are dirty ammunition and pocket lint getting into the action.

EDA: just saw an article it was the CIAs pistol of choice and often paired with 1920s era maxim silencers. Sounds plausible enough.

[TromboneAl]

Another question: When the gun is jammed, as seen in the still for the above video, what happens when you pull the trigger? Does it pull back, or is it stuck? If the former, does it click?

Here's part of the first scene in which she uses a gun (rough draft). Note that she's Romanian and speaks broken English. Any problems?

When he was right below me, I dropped onto him. It was risky, with nothing but cement surfaces all around. I landed with one foot on his shoulder, the other, bent a bit, on his head. We both went down hard. Pain flashed up from my left shoulder. I had the element of surprise and recovered first.

I pulled his gun from his holster, flipped off the safety, and shot him in the back of the head. I had heard him talking with someone. I whirled toward the door. His companion—Josh—was going for his gun. I put one round in his chest and one in his head.

The noise was deafening, literally, in the cement-sided stairway. I opened my mouth wide and shook my head. No matter. My hearing would return. The gun was indeed a Smith and Wesson model 59. Fourteen rounds in the magazine—I’d used two. I removed the guy’s jacket and liberated his holster. I checked his pockets and took his keys.

Anything else in there that would be useful? Ah, is perfect. A suppressor. I pocketed it, happy I was wearing my cargo pants and not a skirt. I went through the same drill with Josh’s body.

I don’t go in for the rough stuff. Unless it’s necessary.

[TromboneAl]

And here's the scene involving the jam. It needs editing, but the basic idea is there:

I kept the sight on Bolton’s right eye and pulled the trigger.
Nothing happened.
I looked down—jam! A stovepipe. A spent casing had failed to eject, preventing the slide from going forward. My injured wrist! I’d limp-wristed the last shot, absorbing too much recoil and causing the jam. I removed the magazine, racked the gun, and put the magazine back.
It took only two seconds, but it was too much time. Bolton batted the gun out of my hand.



Thanks for the help!

[Car-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl Another question: When the gun is jammed, as seen in the still for the above video, what happens when you pull the trigger? Does it pull back, or is it stuck? If the former, does it click?

Interesting question. I probably know more about guns than I do about cars but I had to think a little on that for a minute. I don't own a SW M59 but it "probably" acts like most other DA SA's (Double Action Semi Automatic's.) So I simulated a stovepipe jam in a couple of different DA SA that I have and they both did the same thing. The trigger would move freely on each gun but they were effectively disengaged.

[Car-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl And here's the scene involving the jam. It needs editing, but the basic idea is there: I looked down—jam! A stovepipe. A spent casing had failed to eject, preventing the slide from going forward. My injured wrist! I’d limp-wristed the last shot, absorbing too much recoil and causing the jam.

A typical limp wrist jam "can/may" occur when you "don't" absorb enough of the semi auto's recoil, not when you absorb too much. It's usually more of a problem for a novice or inexperienced shooter.

So I'd say it like this to be a little more accurate.

I looked down—jam! A stovepipe. A spent casing had failed to eject, preventing the slide from going forward. My injured wrist! I’d limp-wristed the last shot by not absorbing enough of the recoil and causing the jam.