Gas explosions in Mass.

[samclem]

Electric and Gas Companies will most likely get off on this one. They will play the Act of God plea and they have the money and power to fight to the bitter end.

It will be a tough fight to prove anything either way and I would bet evidence is already twisted. I have been involved with cases like this we will see.

If it was an overpressure and a few dozen houses blew up when regulators at those houses failed, I'd still think the utility is ultimately to blame, since they own the meter and regulator. But, we'll see.

 

[frayne]

Pure speculation but if the utility is negligent they are liability and the lawyers will have a field day on this one for years and the costs will ultimately be passed back onto the consumer. Look for a class action lawsuit, which could be settled sooner and more cost effective for the company, again if they were at fault and there was no type of force majeure issue or language in customer contracts.

 

[aja8888]

I'll bet the utility has insurance for these kinds of incidents if proven their responsibility (not negligence, but equipment failure).

 

[ERD50]

Electric and Gas Companies will most likely get off on this one. They will play the Act of God plea and they have the money and power to fight to the bitter end.

It will be a tough fight to prove anything either way and I would bet evidence is already twisted. I have been involved with cases like this we will see.

In response to this, and the next few posts, look back at my earlier post/link/quote regarding a similar sounding (cause TBD) incident in Chicago in 1992.

Initially the increase in pressure was attributed to a faulty regulator. However, after lengthy investigations, the Illinois Commerce Commission (ICC) and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that a Peoples Gas Company crew was responsible. While doing routine maintenance on gas pressure regulators valves in a vault at Erie and Green streets, the crew failed to monitor downstream pressure when the pressure regulators were off-line. Normal gas pressure of 1/4 PSI soared to at least 10 PSI -- 40 times the normal pressure.

But it does seem customers would just end up paying the price anyhow?

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

Of course we are. Like the utilities are going to go out of business and America will go dark and cold?

 

[ERD50]

Of course we are. Like the utilities are going to go out of business and America will go dark and cold?

I hear ya. But it might be a little more complicated than that. In the case of the Chicago incident, Peoples Gas (now WEC) is a publicly traded company, so maybe shareholders took some of the hit (theoretically)?

But as a utility, some of this is regulated, so who knows where it falls?

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/WEC/

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

I would expect the shareholders to endure a period of reduced dividends.

 

[street]

Time will tell, we will see. Act of God will be their plea with an equipment failure that is something that is not controlled. They will have paper work in order and most likely show they were in compliance. There lawyers will tell home owners that their home insurance will have to cover the costs.

I have know idea how it will turn out but if negligence is found then it might be a different story.

 

[aja8888]

See post #28.

 

[CaptTom]

Since we're into the realm of speculation anyway, might the utility have some legal limits to their liability? It's not uncommon in high-risk industries (think, airlines) to pre-plan who pays and how much, rather than have each event litigated to death, which mostly benefits only the attorneys.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

We had something like this but with the electric company having an odd power fluctuation (surge) which fried a lot of appliances such as personal computers. The power company denied any liability so the lawyers came in. I don't know how it got resolved.


I don't recall any injuries from that, unlike the tragic loss of life and injuries from the MA event.

Not to get off on too much of a tangent, but when we had our electrical panel upgraded we had a whole house surge protector installed for about $200. Very much worth it, IMO, considering how many computers and electronics we have.

 

[jazz4cash]

I’d just like to know what went wrong and how to prevent problems in the future for the population in general including me. Do I need to install another device on our gas feed line?

 

[travelover]

I’d just like to know what went wrong and how to prevent problems in the future for the population in general including me. Do I need to install another device on our gas feed line?

I think this is an important thing to know. I keep a cheap Harbor Freight adjustable wrench on our gas shutoff so it can be shut off pronto, like in an earthquake.

 

[dixonge]

"The National Transportation Safety Board “can confirm at this time that this was indeed an overpressure situation,” NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt said at a news briefing."


https://www.wsj.com/articles/residents-return-after-gas-line-caused-explosions-fires-1537118229

 

[Mykle57]

I'm in Andover but wasn't affected (no gas in my neighborhood).

There have been numerous subcontractors replacing or upgrading gas lines in the area. My guess they'll blame it on one of subcontractors. I've already heard a portion of the gas line was recently routed around the pressure valve.

Speculation on my part, knowing that gas meters are sometimes installed inside the basement older homes in this area i'm guessing that an overpressure condition would cause gas to be released into the basement where the furnace resides.

but, i got a kick out of the conspiracy theory that it was caused by a hacker in Ohio that overrode Columbia Gas controls. Gotta love the Internet.

 

[ERD50]

"The National Transportation Safety Board “can confirm at this time that this was indeed an overpressure situation,” NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt said at a news briefing."


https://www.wsj.com/articles/residents-return-after-gas-line-caused-explosions-fires-1537118229

That's how these investigations go. It seems obvious that it was over-pressure, but they need to validate and not assume.

From that article:

Mr. Sumwalt said it could take 12 to 24 months for the NTSB to complete its final report, but said the agency could issue urgent safety recommendations meanwhile if it finds problems that need immediate fixing.

I'm really curious if this was similar to Chicago, where there were no regulators in the homes, so that increased pressure just went right to the home fixtures. Or if the pressure was so high it just blew out the home regulators.

-ERD50

 

[ncbill]

That's how these investigations go. It seems obvious that it was over-pressure, but they need to validate and not assume.

From that article:



I'm really curious if this was similar to Chicago, where there were no regulators in the homes, so that increased pressure just went right to the home fixtures. Or if the pressure was so high it just blew out the home regulators.

-ERD50

That's the $64,000 question.

One photo I saw showed a wall-mounted box with dials in the basement.

It was much smaller than the combination meter/pressure regulator you see here locally.

Which is always installed outside.

So I'm guessing no regulator, just a meter installed inside for that area.

 

[ERD50]

My Son-in-Law was in this w/e, he works for an engineering firm in the gas utility industry, so here is the promised update after I questioned him on the Boston event:

Yes, it seems that this was similar to the scenario in Chicago in 1992 (I posted earlier), where the NG is distributed at low pressure (< 1 PSI) at the neighborhood level, so there are no regulators at the homes/buildings. This is referred to as "District Regulation", and he says a lot of the work they do is involved in converting these old systems. So apparently it is still fairly common.

They convert to a "medium pressure" system, ~ 1 ~60 PSI, with a regulator at each meter (or maybe one for a group of co-located meters like in an apartment or commercial building). If the design pressure in a "medium pressure" system is > 10 PSI, there will be an "excess shut off" valve at the Tee. This is analogous to a circuit breaker in an electrical panel. If a construction crew were to cut through a pipe, the sudden increase in flow would be detected, and the valve would completely shut off the flow of gas to that section, and have to be manually reset after the cause was determined and repaired. And they valves are designed to be 'fail safe', that just about any conceivable failure mode would result in the gas being shut off, not stuck on. But never say never.

So that sounds a lot safer than the old "District Regulation" approach. If you do a search on those terms, you'll get lots of hits, but mostly pretty technical.

I saw a youtube video on these gas regulators, and verified that our meter does have a regulator on it. I think I'll make up a pipe/bar that could be used to shut off the gas, paint it red, and set it by our gas meter. That would be better than trying to find a wrench in an emergency.

So we will need to wait for an update on the Boston event, as to the actual cause (failed district regulator, a repair crew mistake/bypass, etc), but any increase in pressure at the 'district' level would have gone straight into those buildings.

If I did not have a regulator at my house, I think I'd be pushing the gas company for one - even if it did nothing in normal operation, it would be a last line of defense against over-pressure in the system. I'm going to check with each of my kids.


Hmmm, I forgot to ask how much over-pressure one of these regulators could take - like if the pressure in the system got way out of whack. Just looking at them, they look beefy, I doub't that they would fail under any but the most unlikely scenario.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Update from NTSB

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/PLD18MR003-preliminary-report.aspx

Prior to the over-pressure event, a Columbia Gas-contracted work crew, which included a Columbia Gas inspector, was performing a Columbia Gas-designed and approved pipe-replacement project at a nearby intersection (South Union Street and Salem Street) in South Lawrence. The contracted crew was working on a tie-in project of a new plastic distribution main and the abandonment of a cast-iron distribution main. The distribution main that was abandoned still had the regulator sensing lines that were used to detect pressure in the distribution system and provide input to the regulators to control the system pressure. Once the contractor crews disconnected the distribution main that was going to be abandoned, the section containing the sensing lines began losing pressure.

As the pressure in the abandoned distribution main dropped about 0.25 inches of water column (about 0.01 psig), the regulators responded by opening further, increasing pressure in the distribution system. Since the regulators no longer sensed system pressure they fully opened allowing the full flow of high-pressure gas to be released into the distribution system supplying the neighborhood, exceeding the maximum allowable pressure.

Wow. So they were sensing on the disconnected line, so the regulators just stayed open. Kinda scary they don't have some redundant checks and alrams so the crew would know something was wrong right away and intervene.

If anyone lives in an area with low pressure distribution, I'd really want to talk to the gas company and ask them about what steps they are taking to avoid this and to update the system to regulators at the meter.

-ERD50

 

[jazz4cash]

Just got a flyer in the corrected gas bill that describes a device that is available to prevent overflow condition sometimes caused by disruption of the service line going to the meter due to construction, etc. Customer will be responsible for installation which is typically $1200-$2000. Excess Flow Valve (EFV). These chuckleheads can’t even get my meter reading correctly. They billed me more gas than I’ve used in the past 15 months.

 

[samclem]

Just got a flyer in the corrected gas bill that describes a device that is available to prevent overflow condition

That's some nerve. "Pay us $1500 or we might blow up your house and burn you alive."

 

[ERD50]

Just got a flyer in the corrected gas bill that describes a device that is available to prevent overflow condition sometimes caused by disruption of the service line going to the meter due to construction, etc. Customer will be responsible for installation which is typically $1200-$2000. Excess Flow Valve (EFV). These chuckleheads can’t even get my meter reading correctly. They billed me more gas than I’ve used in the past 15 months.

That's some nerve. "Pay us $1500 or we might blow up your house and burn you alive."

Deal!

Yes, really weird that they would ask the customer to pay for that.

From my earlier post, from after I talked to my Son-In-Law, I mentioned an "excess shut off" valve at the Tee. Don't recall if those were my terms for what he described, or if he used those words, but it sounds just like the Excess Flow Valve you described. But as he described it, those would be upstream wherever the line Tees off (to protect against someone cutting the line after that Tee). OK, I guess that could be for each customer, especially for single-family-homes. But I almost wonder if they'd try to charge both you and your neighbors for the same valve if it supplied you both!

I'm curious, I'll ask my SIL if he ever heard of charging the customer for that. He might not know, he's on the engineering side of things, so probably isn't aware of who is paying for what. Sounds strange though.

-ERD50

 

[jazz4cash]

I’m thinking maybe they received a lot of calls from worried customers wanting to know if anything could be done and this is their response “yes we can, but it’ll cost you”. It’s too bad they didn’t include some info wrt the safety devices that are currently in place (we have regulators on the meters which are on the exterior. They relocated most meters to the outside many years ago to improve the cost and accuracy of meter readings way before wireless transmitters were installed. To their credit they found a leak in our meter during a neighborhood audit and replaced it which is when they screwed up the reading. Here’s the flyer;
https://www.bge.com/SafetyCommunity/Safety/Pages/ExcessFlowValves.aspx

 

[ERD50]

A follow up my Son-In-Law sent me. This was pretty scary - a lot of old infrastructure out there.

I can't believe how lax some people are. If I smell gas, I'm not resting until it is fixed. Some of these people report it, and that's it. Then go out and light a cigar near the gas smell!

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...-explosion-fire-leak-safety-phmsa/1362595002/

-ERD50

 

[jazz4cash]

ERD50
Thanks for that update. Kind of incredulous that one of the homeowners says the smell was "an everyday occuance-we got numb to it". Now I'm looking at residential combustible gas detectors on Amazon that run $20-30. I think I'll get one to try.