going solar

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort I looked at solar but the payback period for us is very long. Instead I bought a book by an energy auditor with a household that uses 6 kwh a day (avg US is 30 kw) of electricity and we have been working towards that level of usage. We used to be above average users of electricity for similar homes in our area on our utility charts and last month we were right around their efficient homes cutoff (390 kwh for efficient homes vs our 388 kwh, around 12 kwh daily avg).

+1 We looked at solar a couple years ago. They proposed a $23k system that was $14k after federal and state tax credits. However, our average monthly bill as is was only about $75/month so our savings would be ~$800/year or a 17.5 year payback with 0% interest. With 3% inflation on the savings (increasing electric rates) and a 5.5% cost of money I figured a 25 year payback and that assumed no maintenance costs. Just didn't make sense for us.

We have use ~8-16 kwh/day when we are here, and ~4-5 kwh/day when we are gone.

Other than LEDs what other things have you done?

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski +1 We looked at solar a couple years ago. They proposed a $23k system that was $14k after federal and state tax credits. However, our average monthly bill as is was only about $75/month so our savings would be ~$800/year or a 17.5 year payback with 0% interest. With 3% inflation on the savings (increasing electric rates) and a 5.5% cost of money I figured a 25 year payback and that assumed no maintenance costs. Just didn't make sense for us. We have use ~8-16 kwh/day when we are here, and ~4-5 kwh/day when we are gone. Other than LEDs what other things have you done?

I think we use around 5 - 6 kwh baseline, 8 kwh when DH is traveling and I'm here alone, and the 12 kwh when we are both here and making meals together. We use more kwhs in the middle of winter. I can post details on what we found helpful later - I have to do some errands this afternoon.

[mpeirce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet I just can't see why I should pay higher electric rates or taxes to encourage my neighbors to buy or lease systems.

To save the world. Right?

[Brat]

The cheapest electricity is that you don't use.

Prices for solar panels have dropped significantly but it makes no sense to install them unless you get a nice return on your investment. I would NEVER recommend a leased roof-top installation.

My DD installed solar panels on her roof in the Bay Area last fall. The only reason she did that is that she purchased a Tesla.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Other than LEDs what other things have you done?

Your usage is also much lower than national averages - what do you do different?

We lowered our bill as a part of our "we have to cut expenses to have enough money to ER project" and:

- Bought a Kill a Watt meter
- Fan sound app instead of a real fan for white noise at night
- Small energy efficient appliances instead of the built-ins - Instant pot, electric wok, thermal cookers, Presto pizza oven and an assortment of other low energy gadgets
- LED and solar lighting
- Reuseable plastic ice cubes instead of ice maker on 24 X 7
- Low energy, low water washer + drying racks
- Unplugged some stuff, sold the second fridge
- Bought draft stoppers
- Caulked and sealed
- Replaced an old energy hog plasma TV
- Reuseable batteries with a solar charger

We didn't do any home improvements or add insulation. We just try to reduce our electric usage a few kwhs every month or so with small changes here and there.

[Totoro]

Not sure if this reeling off-topic, but I just moved to a new apartment with a smart meter. I'm making a small challenge out of it to see how low I can go. Single so I'm fully in control.

Turns out I use <2kwh per day, and about 0.3m3 of gas. When I'm home. When I'm out it drops close to zero: 0.3kwh and <0.1m3 gas. My base load is 11W (unpluggable built-in devices) and anti-freeze heating + keep the boiler warm.

Pretty exceptional situation though: new building, surrounded by neighbors so I only use gas for my long warm showers. Since I live on my own it's at most 1 LED light at a time (6W), one laptop (40W) and the phone (5W when charging). Add a bit of cooking (induction 1.3kW) and washing + ironing, and I'm mostly done. No dryer, because it ruins clothes much faster.

Hardly need a fridge, so it's unplugged most of the time. Turns out with a bit of planning I don't really need one. I live <15 mins bike ride from the supermarkets which are open late every day.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoro Not sure if this reeling off-topic, but I just moved to a new apartment with a smart meter. I'm making a small challenge out of it to see how low I can go. Single so I'm fully in control. Turns out I use <2kwh per day, and about 0.3m3 of gas. When I'm home. When I'm out it drops close to zero: 0.3kwh and <0.1m3 gas. My base load is 11W (unpluggable built-in devices) and anti-freeze heating + keep the boiler warm. Pretty exceptional situation though: new building, surrounded by neighbors so I only use gas for my long warm showers. Since I live on my own it's at most 1 LED light at a time (6W), one laptop (40W) and the phone (5W when charging). Add a bit of cooking (induction 1.3kW) and washing + ironing, and I'm mostly done. No dryer, because it ruins clothes much faster. Hardly need a fridge, so it's unplugged most of the time. Turns out with a bit of planning I don't really need one. I live <15 mins bike ride from the supermarkets which are open late every day.

I used to work with a single guy who lived in an apartment, ate out frequently and I think he may not have owned a TV. He was charged $5 a month by the local utility company as that was their minimum charge at the time. He used to laugh about it because he actually used less than the $5.

[MasterBlaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoro Not sure if this reeling off-topic, but I just moved to a new apartment with a smart meter. I'm making a small challenge out of it to see how low I can go. Single so I'm fully in control. Turns out I use <2kwh per day, and about 0.3m3 of gas. When I'm home. When I'm out it drops close to zero: 0.3kwh and <0.1m3 gas. My base load is 11W (unpluggable built-in devices) and anti-freeze heating + keep the boiler warm. Pretty exceptional situation though: new building, surrounded by neighbors so I only use gas for my long warm showers. Since I live on my own it's at most 1 LED light at a time (6W), one laptop (40W) and the phone (5W when charging). Add a bit of cooking (induction 1.3kW) and washing + ironing, and I'm mostly done. No dryer, because it ruins clothes much faster. Hardly need a fridge, so it's unplugged most of the time. Turns out with a bit of planning I don't really need one. I live <15 mins bike ride from the supermarkets which are open late every day.

So based on your super-low electricity usage. May I ask how much your electric bill is every month ?


For me, My electric company has sizable "base" charges for generation and distribution. The electricity on top of those charges is then very reasonably priced. Still I pay quite a bit more (relatively) than I used to before "base" charges were enacted.

[Totoro]

Less than 10$.

The way it works here is that you get government set fixed charges for connectivity, and then a fixed rebate for 'basic electricity use'. The rebate equals a small hookup, so in effect you pay no fixed charge to the distributor for a small residential line. The generator offers you whatever deal they want, but I managed to find one with no fixed charges. So in theory if I used 0 kwh, I'd pay 0$.

Variable cost is about 20 cents per kwh. Most of that is the variable part of the government tax and connectivity charges.

The actual electricity provider gets only 4 cents per kwh. Raw deal for them .. they have to handle all my billing and administration for less than $25 a year.

Since I already called their helpdesk three times because of faulty admin issues I highly doubt my account is profitable.

[HFWR]

My usage in DFW:

ELEC: 2015: Total = 6399, Avg = 552, Max = 1172 Aug), Min = 222 (Dec)
Highest since beginning of 2010: 1621 (Aug 2011)
Lowest: 194 (Mar 2016)

NATGAS: Total = 350, Avg = 29.2, Max = 90 (Jan), Min = 4 (Aug)

[Chuckanut]

Interesting article on Tesla in Puerto Rico.

Is this the future of electrical power in rural areas and/or areas where reliable power generation is iffy?

https://electrek.co/2018/06/03/tesla...ico-elon-musk/

Quote:

Tesla appears to have been focusing on this strategy of having decentralized energy storage systems at the end users, which secure power for them, but also using some of that energy storage capacity for grid services, which can result in a more stable grid.

[Sunset]

Having a decentralized system solves the issue of large scale transmission interruption, as happened in PR just recently when a tree fell on the major transmission line leaving the entire country without power.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut Interesting article on Tesla in Puerto Rico. Is this the future of electrical power in rural areas and/or areas where reliable power generation is iffy? https://electrek.co/2018/06/03/tesla...ico-elon-musk/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunset Having a decentralized system solves the issue of large scale transmission interruption, as happened in PR just recently when a tree fell on the major transmission line leaving the entire country without power.

Decentralizing is a positive, and I think solar/battery installations like this can make a lot of sense where infrastructure doesn't exist or is expensive to install. And for small demand, the infrastructure becomes more expensive relative to what it would supply (and what they can charge for).

But when you start getting into supplying lots of electricity (A/C, well pumps, etc), solar and batteries gets very expensive. Just get an estimate for what it would cost to supply your own home, off grid. And w/o a grid, those batteries are being charged/discharged every day, which is hard on them, so replacement costs must be factored in.

But if you just want to run some LED reading lights at night, a radio or small TV, maybe a small, efficient fridge and cell phone charger, it can be done pretty easily.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

I wasn't having much luck fnding specific numbers for solar in PR, but I found this:

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/05/...g-over-260-mw/

They mention plans of some plants mostly in the range of ~ 20 MW. When they mention storage, it seems to only be about 2 hours worth at the peak rates.

And remember, when they talk about a 40 MW solar PV installation, that means up to 40 MW during full sun around noon, and less at other times. So 2 hours of storage won't free you from the grid, that storage is just to level out the noon peak and extend it towards the later afternoon.

A typical coal plant in IL is 800 MW continuous, it can produce that pretty much 24/7 if needed. So 20 of those 40 MW installations can only match that around noon on a sunny day, and lower rates in the early Am and later afternoon. You'd need many, many times that storage to provide reliable power all night, and to cover a few cloudy days. Gets expensive fast.

-ERD50

[NW-Bound]

The cost of storage is a problem that will not be solved for a long time to come.

If Germany had cheap storage to store some of its sometimes surplus renewable energy, it would not have to continue to burn lignite (brown coal) from giant open surface mines. They are still relocating villages and tearing down old churches to allow the mines to expand.

Unused church torn down in Germany to make way for open-pit coal mine | News | DW | 10.01.2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQMtGZug4PU

[target2019]

Here are charts about energy use and production in Germany.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/fact...wer-mix-charts
Germany has reduced their use of hard coal, but still using same amount of lignite. Their growing use of renewables appears to take up the slack, and also feeds increasing, overall power consumption.

[mexexpat]

We went solar at our Mexican home last year. Their pay-back scheme remains very friendly for residential solar producers. Our payback will be 3 years. Total cost for 8 panels with installation was 91000 pesos or about $ 4,600 USD.

[meierlde]

A couple of notes on leased panels as folks in Fl found out if the grid goes down leased solar tends to go offline since it uses grid tied inverters. To get the backup costs a good bit more money, starting with putting in a critical loads panel, deciding what critical loads are, buying a battery, solar charge controller and different inverter setup.

Note that the energy charge has the utility just paying you what it saved by not buying power at the substation. (This is more clear in states where the electric utility is no longer vertically integrated with generation separate from distribution.)

Small distributed solar is by far the most expensive kind of solar, utility scale solar at the entrance to the transmission system goes for as little as .04/kwh.

[Freedom56]

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Originally Posted by GrayHare As it happens my place is one of the optimal in the area for solar panel exposure and ease of installation. This fact has not gone unnoticed by the likes of SolarCity, and the parade of salespeople has begun. Their general pitch is, "We'll take care of everything for FREE, and your utility bill will be less. Plus you'll get the tax credit that's expiring Real Soon Now. So, can we start tomorrow?" It's obvious their high-pressure "FREE" has a cost. I would think if I don't mind the up front investment, I can buy a solar system myself and not only get the same reduced utility bill, but also capture the portion Big Solar Company would pocket. Plus, future house sale looks easier since a new owner would not be pre-committed to the solar vendor. Am I missing something? Except to avoid the up front cost, why might it make sense to instead sign a contract with a Big Solar Company?

We installed a solar system in late 2012 and completely broke even after 4.5 years assuming 2012 electricity rates. Our roof is pitched 24 degrees at an azimuth of 195 degrees and our home is in Southern California. Our annual electricity expenditure was at the time about $3800. We contacted about three different contractors and received quotes ranging from $38K to $48K for a system. We spoke with people we know that had installed systems in our area and got nothing but horror stories like leaking roofs or paying just as much for electricity when you include leasing costs. I found a company in San Francisco that analyzes your roof using Google Earth and provides the optimum layout for solar panels, the quantity of panels you can install, plus an estimate of how much you can generate by month all for $150. They use PVCALC to provide the estimates. This was a pretty good investment since it would allow us to compare with our consumption. We purchased the panels and micro inverters from a company online from New Mexico. We hired an engineer to draw up plans for the permits. My wife obtained the permits from the city. We hired one of the largest installers in Southern California to provide the roof mounting hardware and install our system. The total cash outlay was about $23K for a 5.38KW system with 22 Kyocera panels and 22 Enphase Micro inverters, labor, permits, and other costs. We could have saved about $4300 if we used Chinese panels and a single inverter. The rebate from Socal Edison was about $1800. After our 30% tax credit, our cost was under $16K. The system has worked flawlessly thus far. Socal Edison pays us just over $100 annually for the excess power. So a $16K investment to save $3800 per year. You can't get kind of return from the market or CDs. We also spent about $600 to change to LED lighting and installed a variable speed motor in our pool pump. We did that on our own. That alone paid for itself within a year. If you are considering solar, start here for your ROI calculations.

http://pvcalc.org

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by Freedom56 ... So a $16K investment to save $3800 per year. You can't get kind of return from the market or CDs. ...

I might if I was able to get an $1800 discount and 30% tax credit on a fund or CD.

Just sayin'.

Why don't the taxpayers who subsidized your panels also get their share of the savings?

Quote:

The rebate from Socal Edison was about $1800. After our 30% tax credit,

-ERD50