Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-16-2016, 04:05 PM   #141
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Some in Congress have some "concerns" about how the tax breaks have been used. The solar companies say all is well. From today's WSJ (subscription may be required):



It sounds like the issue is the transfer of tax credits from the solar companies to investors. Maybe not relevant to residential systems?
It's exactly the residential leases that are the issue. These companies place the panels on the roof of a residence, lease the panels to the property owner or sell the electricity to the owner, and get the tax credit.
Another Reader is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-16-2016, 04:14 PM   #142
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Reader View Post
It's exactly the residential leases that are the issue. These companies place the panels on the roof of a residence, lease the panels to the property owner or sell the electricity to the owner, and get the tax credit.
Thanks. Well, the solar tax credit is supremely inefficient anyway, it matters little into which pocket the taxpayer's money is stuffed.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 06:28 PM   #143
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 8,968
It matters to me, I want it stuffed into my pocket -

I bought it, I payed for it and I want my credit!
RobbieB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2016, 06:37 AM   #144
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,405
It will be interesting to see what gets past the PUC for the new net metering contract. In Arizona, APS and SRP all but shut down residential solar installations. SRP added a $30 monthly demand charge in 2014. APS and the Tucson utility have gone to the Arizona Corporations Commission for rate increases that will affect solar customers.

Oddly, APS is soliciting residential customers for rooftop installations. The customer gets a $30 a month credit for accepting the panels. In an area where summer electric bills are routinely $300 a month or more, that's not much incentive.
Another Reader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 12:17 PM   #145
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 8,968
I am online and have generated my first KWH of energy. I am using negative power on the smart meter and the KWH total is decreasing. All monitoring is working (computer and smart phone app) and all looks good. PTO came in today and when I flipped the 2 breakers everything worked. In under the wire, only 170 MW left now in PG&E NEM 1.0, and I'm on the E6 plan!

I did this with 1 bid and yes the cost seemed high at $16,906 for a 3.6 KW install but it is the latest Sunpower stuff with microinverters and I find that it really isn't that high. According to this from the state, I am under the average cost of $5.30/watt, only $4.70 -

Life is good!
RobbieB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 01:43 PM   #146
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,405
I was offered $3.69 a watt from another contractor for a 5.13 kW system with SolarWorld panels and microinverters plus Enphase equipment. I was past the cutoff for E-6 TOU when I inquired, but I probably would have taken the deal, except they would not guarantee a PTO by the time NEM 1.0 expired.

I expect NEM 2.0 to be unfavorable to the customer and likely there will be many fewer installations. Arizona installations have all but dried up with the introduction of various fees. The price will have to drop significantly to get my interest.
Another Reader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 02:13 PM   #147
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Red Rock Country
Posts: 1,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Reader View Post
Arizona installations have all but dried up with the introduction of various fees.
That's not quite true. While installations in SRP territory have dwindled since demand fees were instituted, the other major utility, APS, has not had their rate case heard so as long as you get installed before sometime likely in 2017, the existing net metering rules will apply for 20 years.
Ian S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 02:58 PM   #148
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Just_Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
The only way I would consider solar is when storage batteries come down enough to be able to be almost totally off grid.
Just_Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 03:13 PM   #149
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Steve View Post
The only way I would consider solar is when storage batteries come down enough to be able to be almost totally off grid.
Why would you want to be off-grid? The grid provides an inexpensive buffer for solar panels.

The economics of solar are pretty questionable, even with most subsidies - batteries would need to be (nearly?) free to compete with the grid. And they need to be replaced in a few years.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 04:12 PM   #150
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Why would you want to be off-grid? The grid provides an inexpensive buffer for solar panels.
Where there is a grid. But if off-grid electricity can be cheap and reliable, it would open up lots of potential new residential locations away from the power lines. Running AC to a remote property can be very expensive. Water (well), septic, and even cell-based data services are much more broadly available, and it's generally practical to truck-in propane or oil for heat. Often electric power is the only missing "essential."
So, I'd be in the same boat as Just Steve--because only a solar electric system with battery backup gives me something worth the cost--the ability to use a lower-cost, more rural site.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 04:30 PM   #151
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Where there is a grid. But if off-grid electricity can be cheap and reliable, it would open up lots of potential new residential locations away from the power lines. Running AC to a remote property can be very expensive. Water (well), septic, and even cell-based data services are much more broadly available, and it's generally practical to truck-in propane or oil for heat. Often electric power is the only missing "essential."
So, I'd be in the same boat as Just Steve--because only a solar electric system with battery backup gives me something worth the cost--the ability to use a lower-cost, more rural site.
Agreed, but he said " to be able to be almost totally off grid. ". Implying he still had a grid connection. So I don't get it.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 04:48 PM   #152
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Just_Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Agreed, but he said " to be able to be almost totally off grid. ". Implying he still had a grid connection. So I don't get it.

-ERD50
To not be beholden to the extortionist power company.

Grid meaning power grid, not in the boonies type of grid.
Just_Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 04:59 PM   #153
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 8,968
I need the grid, the AC will not work w/o it. With AC on and the rest of the house running I have seen demand of over 4 KW. It's running now and when I look I'm drawing 1.6 KW, so the solar is making 2.4.

Of course the AC is not even running half the time so when it's not I'm spinning the meter backward. It's really pretty cool -
RobbieB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 06:25 PM   #154
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
Image you got paid the price for electricity you put into the grid that the utility pays the big generator and transmission line company, not the retail price. That might be .05 to .07 per kwh. Essentially the issue is that if you draw for 1 min peak power the distribution system has to be sized to handle it. Thus the movement to more fixed charges or in some cases the model used in commercial power where there is a demand charge as well as an energy charges (Part of your bill is based upon the peak demand for electricity over say 15 mins, because that controls the investment needed in the distribution system.
Here is a link to a piece from a local electric coop which says where I live its a 15 to 24 year payout for solar: Renewable Energy | Central Texas Electric Cooperative

Note the piece also suggests that here solar systems don't generally have a net contribution to the grid over a year (they average over the year and true up once a year).
Note that today it was announced that utility scale solar in Dubai is down to .025/kwh and in Mexico .029/kwh. Austin Tx bought some at .04/kwh also. I suspect that rather than roof top solar, the trend might be utility scale solar. Given the economics cited above, the long pay out for roof top solar makes little sense without taxpayer subsidy (or ratepayer subsidy which is basically a tax).
Off grid living is doable, there are lots of TV shows on it, it does require different appliances (generally smaller), but of course led lights make it much more doable.
meierlde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 06:45 PM   #155
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by meierlde View Post
Given the economics cited above, the long pay out for roof top solar makes little sense without taxpayer subsidy (or ratepayer subsidy which is basically a tax).
In the big picture, residential rooftop solar makes zero sense with or without subsidies. It's among the most expensive ways to produce solar electric power.
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 07:14 PM   #156
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Steve View Post
To not be beholden to the extortionist power company.

Grid meaning power grid, not in the boonies type of grid.
How is it 'extortion'? You yourself said you can't do it cheaper yourself. To me, it sounds like they offer a great product at a great price.

I get all the kWh I need for ~ $0.10 per kWh, and it is very reliable (a few short outages per year maybe).

Now, if you did have a cheaper alternative, and were not allowed to disconnect from the grid and forced to buy their product, I might understand.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 07:17 PM   #157
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbieB View Post
I need the grid, the AC will not work w/o it. With AC on and the rest of the house running I have seen demand of over 4 KW. It's running now and when I look I'm drawing 1.6 KW, so the solar is making 2.4.

Of course the AC is not even running half the time so when it's not I'm spinning the meter backward. It's really pretty cool -
Actually the bigger problem is the starting inrush current needed when larger motors start. If you look for example at a fridge you typically need 2 to 3x the capacity in a generator that the fridge while running takes. Power needed during the start of an AC unit could be up to 10kw (for maybe 1/2 second)
meierlde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 07:27 PM   #158
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 3,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
In the big picture, residential rooftop solar makes zero sense with or without subsidies. It's among the most expensive ways to produce solar electric power.
Perhaps the model the San Antonio city utility is using of it installing the rooftop solar and giving a reduction in the utility bill in the form of rent for using the roof. Although even in this program the subsidy decreases as more units are installed. It started out as a $1.20 per watt but has been decreasing. This model does not require any outlay from the homeowner, and the utility can choose where it wants to put the panels for grid stability purposes.

Note that currently this model pays .03/kwh generated.
meierlde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 07:48 PM   #159
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Just_Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dutchess County
Posts: 1,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
How is it 'extortion'? You yourself said you can't do it cheaper yourself. To me, it sounds like they offer a great product at a great price.

I get all the kWh I need for ~ $0.10 per kWh, and it is very reliable (a few short outages per year maybe).

Now, if you did have a cheaper alternative, and were not allowed to disconnect from the grid and forced to buy their product, I might understand.

-ERD50
OK, maybe a poor word choice. But I would be more than happy to generate my own power if I could.
Just_Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 08:06 PM   #160
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by meierlde View Post
Perhaps the model the San Antonio city utility is using of it installing the rooftop solar and giving a reduction in the utility bill in the form of rent for using the roof. Although even in this program the subsidy decreases as more units are installed. It started out as a $1.20 per watt but has been decreasing. This model does not require any outlay from the homeowner, and the utility can choose where it wants to put the panels for grid stability purposes.

Note that currently this model pays .03/kwh generated.
No, the costly/inefficient part is putting these panels on SFH. The small size and unique siting aspects of each house will always make the per watt installation costs and any maintenance costs a lot higher than they should be. Any town with large footprint structures (warehouses, malls, large retail stores, factories, covered parking areas, etc) has locations were solar panels can be installed at lower costs, were they can be optimally inclined for best production, where they will not be shaded, where they are far less likely to be damaged, where they can be easily serviced, and where they can be economically replaced at the end of their service life. Sprinkling these panels around on residential rooftops a few at time is about the least efficient way to get this done (other than the "solar roads" idiocy)
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
going solar GrayHare Other topics 61 06-04-2018 09:42 AM
Going Solar - Maybe jimnjana Other topics 75 10-20-2013 05:48 PM
Going, Going, Gone? CitizenK Hi, I am... 24 04-10-2012 04:00 PM
Lowes is going to start selling DIY Solar Panels jimnjana Other topics 3 12-13-2009 03:48 AM
Wamu ~ going, going.... VaCollector Active Investing, Market Strategies & Alternative Assets 8 09-25-2008 10:36 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:36 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.