Got a call about a security clearance

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Martha, the only thing going for us is that the other guys are human, too. Same dementia.

 

[Khan]

Several years ago I was contacted for a TS investigation for my EX. I had no knowledge of any negative input and would never lie about such; but I did feel a guilty thrill when the interviewer said that EX was displeased that I would be contacted.

 

[Redbugdave]

Hi Nords,

From your description of the man, (of which I have dealt with a few like him), you were at the mercy of your typical run of the mill psychopath. The world has more than their share of them. I'm not sure I would trust the Nation's secrets with a dysfunctional. I would be honest. What goes around...comes around.

Just my opinion...

 

[FinallyRetired]

Yes, aren't real losers a security risk?

Why? It's not security's job to be personnel managers, that's the job of those who hire and fire. Security's job is only to ensure whomever you hire can keep whatever classified material they are cleared into. There are incompetent people at work who would never divulge classified, then there are extremely intelligent and competent individuals who become spies. Security investigators have absolutely nothing to do with the hiring and firing process, in fact, they are not even part of the organization, they are completely independent of it.

 

[martyb]

Their only responsibility is to determine whether the individual might pose a security risk either because of previous actions or associations, or some potential risk due to activity they are involved with at the present. I'm pretty sure alleged mental/emotional stability suspiscions might prompt a bit more thorough examination, though. At least, I would hope so. In my 30+ years, I've come in contact with more than one person that made me wonder if there was any kind of screening going on at all anymore. When I was on active duty in the Air Force, I was in charge of a weapons load crew. We were trained to handle tactical nuclear weapons, and to load those weapons onto NATO-assigned aircraft. Which we did. After about a year of being on my load crew, and handling the nuke bombs, I was called into the boss's office. I was informed that my "2 man" was being relieved of duty and discharged from the Air Force immediately. The reason? After a year of working hands on with live missiles, ammo, conventional and nuclear weapons, it was discovered that he had been a resident in a local mental facility. He spent time there because he was an LSD user and his parents committed him to the facility. LSD was a big no-no for nukes, even though they let my pot use slide. I always wondered why it took them so long to find out about his nut house time. He had a Secret clearance up till that time. So apparently there is still some investigation going on even after a clearance is issued. Of course, that was quite a while ago. I'm sure they have all the bugs worked out by now....

 

[FinallyRetired]

The reason? After a year of working hands on with live missiles, ammo, conventional and nuclear weapons, it was discovered that he had been a resident in a local mental facility.

Marty, that sounds like the old Human Reliability Program (HRP), which should never have allowed him in. I don't know if that's still used, but when I was handling nukes in SAC we had the security clearance guys and the HRP guys, and they did things their own way, though I'm sure they shared some data. Socializing with a Soviet citizen would have been a security problem, acting loony would have been a HRP problem. I had to get rid of one guy through HRP when he told me he would get an urge every now and them to pull his gun and shoot the nuke. I have a feeling he wanted a ticket out, though.

 

[Nords]

... it was discovered that he had been a resident in a local mental facility.

Sounds to me like someone dropped the dime on him.

My best & brightest were usually also the most curious-- the ones who'd experimented with marijuana five or six times, not "just once". ("Hey, this time let's fill the bong with Budweiser!!") I remember waiting with bated breath as the Navy's PRP geniuses debated for months how many times was "experimental" and how many times was "habitual". I think they finally realized how many people they'd have to pull out of the program and made it a big number... if it had been a stupid number like "three" then we would've had to remove all our boat's nuke weps handling supervisors.

 

[chinaco]

Nords.

IMHO - I would not say anything negative on a security related review unless there was a justifiable comment related to security. Plus I would stick to the security line of Q/A. Keep personal opinion out of it. However, if this guy has exhibited some behavior that you believe would make him a security risk... I think you have an obligation to speak up.

 

[lets-retire]

Of course, that was quite a while ago. I'm sure they have all the bugs worked out by now....

Unfortunately they do not.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I guess what we need is two things:

1) Anyone who will receive classified information needs to be so incompetent that they couldnt disseminate the information even if it comes with a travel handle and prepaid postage attached

2) Everyone that has access to classified information needs to be able to look at it and then distribute information that is so completely different from what they read that anyone who evaluates it will come to a totally wrong conclusion.

 

[lets-retire]

I hadn't realized more posts had been made before I posted my last comment.

Retire--I find your states interesting. I currently work on the security side of the equation. I find it irritating to grill someone over a DUI that occurred on base while active duty 9 years ago. Their chain of command knows about the incident, but the person has not lost their clearance had access to classified for 9 years. OPM feels it is a big deal and wants it investigated to the fullest. It seems like a waste of time to me.

The other thing I see often is new recruits coming in with waivers for whatever. Normally the recruiter does not include the item on the SF-86 and the recruit gets to be raked over the coals because of it. Also seems to be a waste of time. The military and the OPM side of things do not talk.

Nords--Your assessment is probably correct. Medical records are not normally checked, because the search would not be financially feasible. There are a lot of shrinks out there.

 

[FinallyRetired]

I hadn't realized more posts had been made before I posted my last comment.

lets, if you work security, you have the most current and accurate info. I'm a bit dated and going by personal recollection. As far as the DUI, seems to me the relevant line of questioning would be whether there is a history of drug/alcohol abuse that is ongoing. If it was a one time thing in the past, I agree, it's a waste of time to keep digging into it, especially if the command has all the info.

What I was primarily responding to is the misunderstanding about the difference between security investigations and work performance. I can't recall ever having been asked whether someone was a good worker or not as part of a security investigation. And if I was asked that, I would refuse to answer the question. I might respond with "on the basis of my observations of his/her work performance, I see no reason for denial of a clearance." If we begin using clearances for job performance investigations, we may as well start using managers to clear people.

 

[Nords]

I guess what we need is two things:
1) Anyone who will receive classified information needs to be so incompetent that they couldnt disseminate the information even if it comes with a travel handle and prepaid postage attached
2) Everyone that has access to classified information needs to be able to look at it and then distribute information that is so completely different from what they read that anyone who evaluates it will come to a totally wrong conclusion.

We practiced that all the time in the submarine force. In fact when anyone came up with a particularly creative screwup, we used to tell everyone else about it and sit through hours of training in admiration of their accomplishments.

It frustrated the heck out of the Germans in WWII, and to some extent the Russians in the Cold War, how frequently American military commanders felt free to disregard their tactical publications whenever deemed necessary. After all, when you've gone to all that trouble to obtain the enemy's latest classified info and design your responses to counter their tactical guidance, you'd like to think that they're studying it too...

 

[bssc]

It frustrated the heck out of the Germans in WWII, and to some extent the Russians in the Cold War, how frequently American military commanders felt free to disregard their tactical publications whenever deemed necessary. After all, when you've gone to all that trouble to obtain the enemy's latest classified info and design your responses to counter their tactical guidance, you'd like to think that they're studying it too...

The quotes are:

"The reason that the America army does so well in wartime is that war is chaos and the American army practices chaos on a daily basis." -- A German General Officer

"One of the serious problems in planning against American doctrine that the Americans do not read their manuals nor do they feel any obligations to follow their doctrine." -- From a Russian military document

 

[martyb]

Marty, that sounds like the old Human Reliability Program (HRP), which should never have allowed him in. I don't know if that's still used, but when I was handling nukes in SAC we had the security clearance guys and the HRP guys, and they did things their own way, though I'm sure they shared some data. Socializing with a Soviet citizen would have been a security problem, acting loony would have been a HRP problem. I had to get rid of one guy through HRP when he told me he would get an urge every now and them to pull his gun and shoot the nuke. I have a feeling he wanted a ticket out, though.

I was in TAC under the old HRP. A few years dowh the road, they quit calling it HRP and changed it to PRP (Personnel Reliability Program). I didn't notice any difference, probably just a name change. I'm not under that stuff anymore, but I guess it's still in place. So...were you a loader, ammo, nuke specialist or what? What was your AFSC?

 

[lets-retire]

It frustrated the heck out of the Germans in WWII, and to some extent the Russians in the Cold War, how frequently American military commanders felt free to disregard their tactical publications whenever deemed necessary. After all, when you've gone to all that trouble to obtain the enemy's latest classified info and design your responses to counter their tactical guidance, you'd like to think that they're studying it too...

When I was a ground pounder my careerfield was one of Spetznaz's 10 most feared/hated because we were always goofing off somewhere, and not doing what we were supposed to be doing where we were supposed to be doing it. At least that was the rumor I heard.

 

[FinallyRetired]

So...were you a loader, ammo, nuke specialist or what? What was your AFSC?

I was a Minuteman targeting team chief. Forgot my AFSC, blotted it out of my memory when I left SAC. I think it was 21XX something.

 

[clifp]

Let see we have ordance loading, targeting, plus air, land, and sea delivery systems on the board.

I feel sorry for any kid who tries to hack this board

Oh and if you all want together and take out North Korea and/or Iran's nuke program, no complaints from me!

 

[martyb]

Yeah, I think we're well armed.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

The quotes are:
Quote:
"The reason that the America army does so well in wartime is that war is chaos and the American army practices chaos on a daily basis." -- A German General Officer
Quote:
"One of the serious problems in planning against American doctrine that the Americans do not read their manuals nor do they feel any obligations to follow their doctrine." -- From a Russian military document
__________________

LOL!! MASH wasn't too far off the mark.

 

[Brat]

If I knew that a subject of a security investigation had used pain killers over an extended period I would mention that. If the use was appropriate the medical staff will confirm, if not the subject could have become addicted and vulnerable.

 

[joesxm3]

When I was in college (soviet area studies) I had a roomate who told me that his brother worked for the CIA.

A few years out of college an investigator from Naval Intelligence came to see me at work asking about the guy who had supposedly applied to them. He said that he as worried because my friend had gone to summer studies in Poland and they had not been able to find anyone who knew him more than ?? years ago.

Seemed funny since I met his father one time and if his brother as already a spook I would have assumed he would be a shoe in.

On the other hand, I think that he had been rejected from his CIA application because he admitted to smoking pot. The sad thing was that he was the guy who only puffed a couple times in his life because he was at some party and it was the polite thing to do. I doubt he ever inhaled enough to even get a decent buzz.

He later hit me up to buy some Amway so I am guessing that he never got in, but I was too busy dodging the sales pitch that I forgot to ask.

On the other hand maybe he was a sleeper....

 

[Nords]

Here's the ending.

The other shipmate e-mailed that he'd also been contacted by the investigator. He'd talked with her for a while about his experiences with our old boss and asked why they were doing the check.

It turns out that this wasn't a periodic reinvestigation, as I'd assumed and not inquired, but rather requested by the command this old boss was working at. He survived major life-threatening surgery several months back and the command is either trying to send him a hint or cover their collective asses. But otherwise the investigation seems to be a waste of time/effort/money, unless it's the only path they can find to permanently removing his clearances. It's hard to see how he's ever going to be able to [-]resume anything resembling a "normal" life[/-] regain the abilities he had, let alone return to work.

This seems to have been one of the very rare times when my instinctive reaction was the right one. I wouldn't have added anything to the investigation, although the investigator received my message loud & clear.

Spouse's comment was "How much of the taxpayer's security-clearance & TRICARE dollars are being spent on this guy?" It's too late for his clearances, but he's probably grateful that the medical community doesn't collect shipmate votes on their cost-benefit decisions...

 

[lets-retire]

The answer for the security clearance money is....not much. As much as people like to say it costs a lot, it really doesn't. I takes all of the investigators maybe two weeks worth of billable hours to complete the investigation, if there are a lot of issues to be resolved.

 

[CCdaCE]

<SNIP>
He survived major life-threatening surgery several months back and the command is either trying to send him a hint or cover their collective asses. But otherwise the investigation seems to be a waste of time/effort/money, unless it's the only path they can find to permanently removing his clearances. It's hard to see how he's ever going to be able to resume anything resembling a "normal" life, let alone return to work.

<SNIP>

So, after the surgery, did he change his name from Carl to Carla, or what? No pun intended with the snipped quote, btw.

-CC