granite kitchen counter istall job installer error...what now?

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW_M5 You've been watching too much TV. I am not an attorney, but do not believe that is necessarily true, unless the contract has a clause like an Entire Agreement clause which states something to the effect that this written agreement represents the entire agreement between the parties regardless of any oral agreements to the contrary and can only be amended by a writing signed by both parties. Verbal agreements can carry just as much weight as a written contract in the eyes of the law, although much more prone to dispute.

Maybe so... but so far there has been zero cases I have seen where a verbal agreement modified a written agreement unless both parties agreed that the verbal took precedence... since one of the parties is saying that there was not a change, then what is going to rule I would say the written agreement....

I guess we need a lawyer to step in and let us know...

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski I guess if the OP wants to have this linger on forever then that would be the right course and would teach the contractor a lesson. OTOH, discretion is the better part of valor.

Never suggested taking them to court... just commenting on another post saying that a verbal agreement can modify a written agreement...

[eytonxav]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Maybe so... but so far there has been zero cases I have seen where a verbal agreement modified a written agreement unless both parties agreed that the verbal took precedence... I guess we need a lawyer to step in and let us know...

All agreements require the agreement of both parties otherwise no agreement. Typically verbal agreement issues arise upfront before the written agreement is drafted or via some verbal term/provision/representation from one of the parties that wasn't captured in the agreement and the other party relied upon it. Nevertheless, verbal agreements agreed by both parties are valid, but such verbal agreements can be difficult to prove without evidence. The other thing that complicates disputes on matters like this is that state laws vary in how agreements are interpreted and when disputes occur even a local venue can affect the outcome. As I indicated, there should be a clear provision in an agreement that disclaims the validity of any verbal agreements and that all amendments must be in writing, but that may not always be the case.

[Bestwifeever]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB ... We have a single deep, and as the house dishwasher and kitchen cleaner, I think it's the best thing ever. Much easier to clean the big pots and pans. A grill on the bottom protects the finish - maybe the contractor will throw one in at no charge.

Nice. We have a double sink with a very low divider, less than half the height of the sink, and I just hate it. The divider is way too low to keep (dirty) water from splashing when rinsing something on the "dirty" side over to the "clean" side. No upside to it. I bowed to DH on this choice, though, so I don't complain and can't blame the contractor , but I wish we had gone with a big old single farmhouse style.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by MichaelB Well, both parties are may be to blame for miscommunication but if the contract and job specs said 60/40 it's up to the contractor to either resolve that difference before proceeding or bring it to your attention. ...

Fully agree. That's what written contracts are for. If they don't update the contract, what's the point? It's like the Seinfeld skit:

Quote:

Jerry: Seinfeld. I made a reservation for a mid-size... Agent: I'm sorry, we have no mid-size available at the moment. Jerry: I don't understand, I made a reservation, do you have my reservation? Agent: Yes, we do, unfortunately we ran out of cars. Jerry: But the reservation keeps the car here. That's why you have the reservation. Agent: I know why we have reservations. Jerry: I don't think you do. If you did, I'd have a car. See, you know how to take the reservation, you just don't know how to *hold* the reservation and that's really the most important part of the reservation, the holding. Anybody can just take them.

A somewhat similar, but very minor problem occurred with our granite install. We got the drawings back, I had a question about the seam placement for a long backslash. We discussed it, he agreed to my minor change which made the seams symmetrical around the window, he made the changes, marked the drawing REV A, sent it to me, and I emailed back agreeing to the REV A. All seemed good.

Install day, I walk through the kitchen as they are working, and notice the seams are not per Rev A. I point it out, and the installers don't have the REVA drawings! I show them mine, they call, and re-do it (not too big of a deal, the sealer/adhesives had not set up yet).

So it was no big deal, but it bothered me that they were not on their toes in terms of getting the newer drawing to the installers.

-ERD50

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW_M5 All agreements require the agreement of both parties otherwise no agreement. Typically verbal agreement issues arise upfront before the written agreement is drafted or via some verbal term/provision/representation from one of the parties that wasn't captured in the agreement and the other party relied upon it. Nevertheless, verbal agreements agreed by both parties are valid, but such verbal agreements can be difficult to prove without evidence. The other thing that complicates disputes on matters like this is that state laws vary in how agreements are interpreted and when disputes occur even a local venue can affect the outcome. As I indicated, there should be a clear provision in an agreement that disclaims the validity of any verbal agreements and that all amendments must be in writing, but that may not always be the case.

I looked it up and from what I can find out.... it kinda is what I said but kinda what you said....


I read at one place that said in Texas you could verbally change a contract IF BOTH PARTIES AGREE, even if there is a clause that said all changes must be in writing... that is kinda what I said... it is only when one of them does not agree (maybe they did at one time, but now are saying they did not) does the written aspect come into play...

And like I said, if both parties do agree then it does not go to court... well, except for one I read where one of the parties died and their spouse was trying to enforce the agreement...

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Maybe so... but so far there has been zero cases I have seen where a verbal agreement modified a written agreement unless both parties agreed that the verbal took precedence... since one of the parties is saying that there was not a change, then what is going to rule I would say the written agreement.... I guess we need a lawyer to step in and let us know...

Quote:

Written contracts may be modified by subsequent oral agreements or conduct, even when they include clauses purporting to prohibit such modifications.

https://www.wilmerhale.com/pages/pub...ewsPubId=94555

Google is a great thing.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski https://www.wilmerhale.com/pages/pub...ewsPubId=94555 Google is a great thing.

Yes... I had read another where there was a partnership agreement that was changed verbally... one of the partners died and the wife was trying to enforce the verbal agreement.... she had to prove her case since one of the parties to the verbal agreement was not alive to testify...


So, you learn something every day....


I will say that what I see on the TV court shows it usually is a he said she said situation and without some other kind of evidence (which BTW I have never seen) they always go with written agreement....


I would also say in this case, I doubt that the OP would lose if it every got to a court... but to me that is a harsh way to go if you can avoid it...

[sheehs1]

This is a tough one infoseeker. I think it depends on how much you and your wife want that 60/40 sink and whether you will be 100% happy with it. I think it also depends on whether you feel there was any chance of any miscommunication. I say this because it "sounds too easy for them to say: well…your wife told the templar 50/50".

I have had granite installed in my home 3 times. The most recent was twice last year for 2 bathroom renovations. The other time was for kitchen counter tops. Never were any changes made without something in writing from the fabricator. Never were slabs cut and fabricated without them coming to measure just days before the install and to make sure all were on the same page. When they came to measure, they took bathroom fixtures back with them to make sure holes were cut properly. I also bought all sinks from them to reduce the chance of error.

$9,000 is a lot of money. It depends on what you are willing to accept. Me? I don't think I would be able to accept it.

If you want him to redo the kitchen counters with the correct 60/40 sink, he can sell those other slabs as remnants to recoup some of his loss.

Good luck with your decision.

[eytonxav]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I looked it up and from what I can find out.... it kinda is what I said but kinda what you said.... I read at one place that said in Texas you could verbally change a contract IF BOTH PARTIES AGREE, even if there is a clause that said all changes must be in writing... that is kinda what I said... it is only when one of them does not agree (maybe they did at one time, but now are saying they did not) does the written aspect come into play... And like I said, if both parties do agree then it does not go to court... well, except for one I read where one of the parties died and their spouse was trying to enforce the agreement...

The only point I was trying to make to you is that verbal agreements can be as binding as written ones, and that a written agreement might be amendable verbally. And the other point, was to not rely on judge judy for understanding how the law works

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW_M5 The only point I was trying to make to you is that verbal agreements can be as binding as written ones, and that a written agreement might be amendable verbally. And the other point, was to not rely on judge judy for understanding how the law works

I knew verbal agreements are binding... I think it cost Texaco $3 billion...

I also agreed that if both parties agreed to a verbal change to a written agreement it was valid...

The only thing I disagreed with was if both parties did not agree that a verbal change was made... using this as an example.... the installer says they verbally agreed to the 50/50 sink and the OP says they never agreed to it.... how would you decide? More than likely go back to the written agreement... Now, if OP actually went out and bought the 50/50 sink I think that by their action that would mean they had agreed....


PS... not a Judge Judy fan....

[eytonxav]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I knew verbal agreements are binding... I think it cost Texaco $3 billion... I also agreed that if both parties agreed to a verbal change to a written agreement it was valid... The only thing I disagreed with was if both parties did not agree that a verbal change was made... using this as an example.... the installer says they verbally agreed to the 50/50 sink and the OP says they never agreed to it.... how would you decide? More than likely go back to the written agreement... Now, if OP actually went out and bought the 50/50 sink I think that by their action that would mean they had agreed.... PS... not a Judge Judy fan....

How can you disagree, as I never indicated if one party disagreed with a verbal change it would still be binding, but I did say both parties agreement is a requirement, otherwise there is no agreement.

[haha]

This thread helps me understand two things. 1) how much fun disagreements are and 2) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I guess I should add #3) Avoid granite, it's expensive, and will break any wineglass that you might drop on it.

Ha

[infoseeker]

I'm the OP with an update. Husband and I decided to have existing 50/50 removed (while counter in place). The sink hole was enlarged slightly in the back only. This done to accomodate a 60/40 sink. No extra granite pieces had to be added. We were compensated $1020 for two minor visual flaws: 1. very small area of sink reveal but not even noticeable unless you searched for it. 2. the seam and faucet hole which normally would have been center of the sink divide was now 1.5 inches to the left. This too was not even noticeable unless someone pointed it out. Work was done the day after we called about incorrect sink. Owner offered $500 compensation for reveal flaw but agreeable to $1000 when I mentioned the seam/faucet were slightly off center. Fabricater was a superb craftsman. We are letting go the fact that end results are not perfect but honestly feel the two flaws cannot be detected by the average Joe. We had the best of all outcomes, it was resolved quickly/fairly and we are now going to forget it and move on with our lives. Oh, yes, the bathroom vanity went in like a charm.....everything 100% on that!

thanks for all your input. Untill reading these posts I had no clue to what a reasonable compensation amount would be. I remember 10% as a reasonable amount. Ten percent would have been $920 I was given $1020.

[Sue J]

Thanks for the update. I was interested in how this turned out. I think you got what you wanted and were fairly compensated for your compromise.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by haha This thread helps me understand two things. 1) how much fun disagreements are and 2) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I guess I should add #3) Avoid granite, it's expensive, and will break any wineglass that you might drop on it. Ha

We really love our granite. It was not that expensive compared to other options, and it is beautiful and elegant and durable.

But yes, I've broken a few nice glasses and dishes - that is a downside compared to other surfaces. I think we talked about this on some other threads, as happy as we are with our granite, a Formica-like product can look great and be inexpensive and durable in the right design. Basically, if each end 'dead-ends' into a wall, or refrigerator or some hidden edge, Formica products can work out really well, no seams (some flow from back-splash to front edge w/o a seam). In our case, we had some angles and exposed ends, and fabricating all that in a real quality way might have cost more in Formica than granite. Skilled install labor versus a computer drives a saw through the slab to cut any intricate shape you need, installers lay it down in a bed of adhesive - pretty simple.

Bottom line, I'm no granite snob - it looks great, but alternatives can look great in the right application as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infoseeker I'm the OP with an update. ... .

Glad it worked out for you. Now enjoy the new kitchen and bath!

-ERD50

[utrecht]

I would much rather have a 50/50 sink, even though I wanted a 60/40 than to have the faucet off center. A 50/50 or 60/40 sink is personal preference. They aren't that different and both look good. A lot of people would choose either option up front. I cant think of anyone who would choose an off center faucet up front. I doubt most people would notice the off center seam but the faucet being 1 1/2 inches off center would bug the hell out of me.

Is it at least lined up with the divider between the two sinks?

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by utrecht I would much rather have a 50/50 sink, even though I wanted a 60/40 than to have the faucet off center. A 50/50 or 60/40 sink is personal preference. They aren't that different and both look good. A lot of people would choose either option up front. I cant think of anyone who would choose an off center faucet up front. I doubt most people would notice the off center seam but the faucet being 1 1/2 inches off center would bug the hell out of me. Is it at least lined up with the divider between the two sinks?

Our kitchen sink does not have the faucet centered...

Just measured the width... the one side is 16 inches and the other side 14... but the larger side goes all the way back... the faucet comes out of the metal on the 14 inch side and is offset closer to the larger side...

You only notice it if that is something that you look for... it looks just fine to me...