Guardianship liablity but no control over the ward

[braumeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock Dad lives alone. If we take control of the finances without control of his living conditions, there is no way to keep him "fed and watered"... groceries, prescriptions, etc. all need to be paid for. Giving Dad access to $ to pay for them himself will result in the $ going to the HHA and not for his needs. Without guardianship there is no way to inject others into the equation to take him grocery shopping/etc. I don't see a way where $ can be controlled without also controlling his living conditions. What am I missing?

Can you give him a prepaid debit card for these small purchases and just keep a small balance on it?

[Spock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski ... And to be clear, once you are appointed guardian you are not liable for your dad's care like in financially liable.... care is paid for by his assets and if his assets are insufficient it is no different from if he were making decisions.. your personal assets should not be at risk unless you chose to put them at risk. ...

I'm not worried about being financially liable for his health care/guardianship. He has an LTC policy + income that would cover an assisted living facility. With the LTC policy it would actually be cheaper to be in an averaged priced facility than living alone.

The concern is being charged with neglect (or even just having to explain it to the judge during a care review) if we have responsibility for his care (guardianship) but are unable to provide that care because he lives alone and doesn't manage his meds, gets lost in his trailer park, falls, eats spoiled food, etc (or falls off a ladder when he shouldn't be walking without a walker).

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock Dad lives alone. If we take control of the finances without control of his living conditions, there is no way to keep him "fed and watered"... groceries, prescriptions, etc. all need to be paid for. Giving Dad access to $ to pay for them himself will result in the $ going to the HHA and not for his needs. Without guardianship there is no way to inject others into the equation to take him grocery shopping/etc. I don't see a way where $ can be controlled without also controlling his living conditions. What am I missing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister Can you give him a prepaid debit card for these small purchases and just keep a small balance on it?

+1

Taking control of the finances has many advantages, one of which is it sharply lessens the likelihood of a financial predator committing fraud.

In addition to a debit card, you can order groceries and other necessities online and have them delivered. You can also hire a caregiver to help him with these tasks that has to work with parameters you set. Controlling his living conditions can require a fair amount of work but it is for his benefit, and it might let him remain in his home.

[Spock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB +1 Taking control of the finances has many advantages, one of which is it sharply lessens the likelihood of a financial predator committing fraud. In addition to a debit card, you can order groceries and other necessities online and have them delivered. You can also hire a caregiver to help him with these tasks that has to work with parameters you set. Controlling his living conditions can require a fair amount of work but it is for his benefit, and it might let him remain in his home.

Dad will not accept a home care giver other than the one that is exploiting him and we are trying to figure out how to remove. Had the current HHA not poisoned the well, Dad probably could have done quite well with just home care.

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock Dad will not accept a home care giver other than the one that is exploiting him and we are trying to figure out how to remove. Had the current HHA not poisoned the well, Dad probably could have done quite well with just home care.

If you gain control of the finances, end the contract and stop paying the HHA, the HHA doesn’t need to be removed, they will move on.

[PatrickA5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock Dad will not accept a home care giver other than the one that is exploiting him and we are trying to figure out how to remove. Had the current HHA not poisoned the well, Dad probably could have done quite well with just home care.

My 97 year old dad would "hide" from his once-a-month house cleaner. Any caregiver would quickly get fired. He ran through pharmacists routinely because they were all out to get him.

Still, he was quite competent on most financial matters, kept his house up, remember doctor appointments, etc. But, he absolutely refused to even consider assisted living. I told him "Dad, there will be one last fall where you don't get up and you won't have a choice". He was fine with that. I found him probably 12 hours after that last fall. He lasted another 10 days in the hospital and a couple of days in the nursing home. I always felt he'd have been so much happier the last few years in an assisted living arrangement, but he wouldn't have it and I couldn't force him to go.

[bmcgonig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr._Graybeard I lied to my father all the time after his dementia developed. Contradicting his misconceptions was pointless and argumentative. Plus, I think he could remember the mood of our conversations over time, if not the content. It worked out a lot better if he wasn't anticipating an argument from me.

+1

My mom definitely remembers the mood of conversations but not the content. She seems to remember feelings. And yes.. Lying is recommended.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock .... The concern is being charged with neglect (or even just having to explain it to the judge during a care review) if we have responsibility for his care (guardianship) but are unable to provide that care because he lives alone and doesn't manage his meds, gets lost in his trailer park, falls, eats spoiled food, etc (or falls off a ladder when he shouldn't be walking without a walker).

I understand the concern, but if you have responsibility for his care as his court-appointed guardian then you have the authority to decide where he lives, even if he doesn't like the decision... so the problem isn't the decision but trying to find a way to communicate it to him that results in the least resistance. But at the end of the day if you need to you just bring him there... and if you need to deceive him to do so then that is unfortunate and might poison the relationship for a while but the greater good is that he is safe.

And yes... I know this is easier said than done... tough love is tough.

Probably won't work but after the court proceeding you might have is court-appointed lawyer explain that all these people who do this for a living looked at his situation and decided that someone needed to be appointed to make decisions for him and the judge agreed and appointed you as his guardian... for some reason that generation sometimes seems to accept it better if a judge says it is so.

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski I understand the concern, but if you have responsibility for his care as his court-appointed guardian then you have the authority to decide where he lives, even if he doesn't like the decision... so the problem isn't the decision but trying to find a way to communicate it to him that results in the least resistance. But at the end of the day if you need to you just bring him there... and if you need to deceive him to do so then that is unfortunate and might poison the relationship for a while but the greater good is that he is safe. And yes... I know this is easier said than done... tough love is tough.

And if course a truly resistant person can get kicked out of a living facility.

[Scratchy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock I'm in the initial stages of filing a petition to have my 85yo dad declared incompetent and have a conservator and a guardian appointed. ....... Any ideas here?

Ask the court to appoint a professional conservator/guardian. They will still face the difficulties actually getting your father to cooperate but it will be their problem. Perhaps they will be able to handle it better, or your father will be more accepting with these decisions coming from a third party.

Perhaps this arrangement may ultimately enable you to have a better relationship with him.

It will be more expensive for his estate but that may be the best option.

[pb4uski]

^^^ Good idea given the situation.

[Teacher Terry]

I would get control of the finances and then quit paying the caregiver. Tell your dad it’s either a different caregiver or a home. Facing that choice should make it easier. Even though my friend had dementia and couldn’t care for herself she went downhill within a month after going into a home. The neurologist said it was depression not the dementia causing it. She was miserable until dying 18 months later. You aren’t going to be charged with neglect of your dad because he is a adult making his own choices. I told my kids unless I have dementia don’t ever try to make me safe. I want to live like my mom. Thankfully all 3 of us kids agreed. It was definitely more work for us kids but well worth it. My kids totally understand. Being safe is highly overrated.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock .... The concern is being charged with neglect (or even just having to explain it to the judge during a care review) if we have responsibility for his care (guardianship) but are unable to provide that care because he lives alone and doesn't manage his meds, gets lost in his trailer park, falls, eats spoiled food, etc (or falls off a ladder when he shouldn't be walking without a walker).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teacher Terry ....You aren’t going to be charged with neglect of your dad because he is a adult making his own choices. I told my kids unless I have dementia don’t ever try to make me safe. I want to live like my mom. Thankfully all 3 of us kids agreed. It was definitely more work for us kids but well worth it. My kids totally understand. Being safe is highly overrated.

So TT, you're a-ok with laying back and not intervening when the old guy doesn't manage his meds, gets lost in his trailer park, eats spoiled food, gets on ladders, etc?

[ncbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock Dad will not accept a home care giver other than the one that is exploiting him and we are trying to figure out how to remove. Had the current HHA not poisoned the well, Dad probably could have done quite well with just home care.

As others have said once you're guardian you've got full reign to stop paying the current caregiver & tell dad it's a new caregiver in order to stay in his home...or a locked ALF.

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski So TT, you're a-ok with laying back and not intervening when the old guy doesn't manage his meds, gets lost in his trailer park, eats spoiled food, gets on ladders, etc?

How do you intervene that's the hard question. You don't have to be OK with something if the reality is you can't do anything to change it. The OP has had a hard road with this parent andi is looking for an answer. Sometimes there is no good answer.

[ivinsfan]

Have you ever dealt with this issue? The new replacement aide comes and can't enter because they are locked out. You can't kidnap someone and transport them to a locked care unit. Nothing about the entire process is easy or stressfree.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan .... You can't kidnap someone and transport them to a locked care unit. Nothing about the entire process is easy or stressfree.

I agree on the last part that the process is not easy or stressfree but I think technically if you are guardian you can "kidnap" someone and transport them to a locked care unit if you have no other viable options to keep them safe... of course, that would be a last resort. Just like as a parent you could do that with a child if the situation warranted. It is no different. In guardianship, society... through the judicial process... has decided that the ward can no longer make decisions for themselves so they are like a child in that somone makes decisions for them.

That is part of why I think that Scratchy's idea to have the court appoint a professional guardian is a great idea.

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski I agree on the last part that the process is not easy or stressfree but I think technically if you are guardian you can "kidnap" someone and transport them to a locked care unit if you have no other viable options to keep them safe... of course, that would be a last resort. Just like as a parent you could do that with a child if the situation warranted. It is no different. In guardianship, society... through the judicial process... has decided that the ward can no longer make decisions for themselves so they are like a child in that somone makes decisions for them. That is part of why I think that Scratchy's idea to have the court appoint a professional guardian is a great idea.

What happens if you move them and they are so fricking abusive they get kicked out? Have an extended family member dealing with this now. It's not dementia issue it's an fyou I'll take care of myself. It's ripping the family to pieces.

[pb4uski]

I agree there are horrible situations out there and I am thankful that I don't have one in my backyard. But it must be dementia or some sort of mental illness because presumably the court would not appoint a guardian for someone of sound mind.

Again, that is why I like the professional guardian idea.

If they are fricking abusive and get kick out then you may need to go to court and have them committed to a lock-up facility if that is the only way to keep them safe. Or the judge will look them in the eye and tell them if they don't shape up then I'll have you locked up and you don't want to test me on that.

Would you prefer that family just step aside and allow them to live unsafely and ultimately injure themselves or others?

[Teacher Terry]

P, I am not for taking people’s freedom away so that they can be safe unless they had dementia. I would never speak to my kids if they tried to do that to me. We each get one life and a right to decide how to live it. We had a governor that retired and lived in Vegas. At 75 he decided to go on the roof in the summer for a reason I can’t remember. His wife begged him not to. He fell off and died. Foolish yes but his decision.