Having a Goodman Furnace *installed*

[athena53]

We bought an Amana A/C unit in our previous house and it had to be replaced less than 5 years later. Warranty didn't cover it. Never again.

We replaced our heating system last fall and the A/C this spring. Original units were 20 years old; we bought the house last July. We got competitive bids from Costco and our usual plumber. They quoted the same Lennox units, which made it easy. Costco won on one, plumber on the other.

Our plumber referred to their sales people as "comfort consultants". Ugh. It was good to have Costco recommending the same units; since they offer a very narrow range of brands/options I trust them to be selective. I will say that gas and electric bills are way down- more than I would have expected just due to being in a smaller house.

 

[aja8888]

I'll add that "annual servicing" does not need to amount to much, and can be done by any reasonably handy person with a little bit of information.

For a gas furnace, I'll say it is far better to become familiar with the normal operation (sight and sound) - then you can easily check it many times throughout the season, rather than a 'pro' checking once a year.

For my gas furnace (standing pilot) -

A) Check for proper pilot size and position relative to thermocouple (this is in the manual, or find on line).

B) Turn the thermostat up to 'call' for heat.

C) The draft inducer fan should click on almost immediately, and you should hear it spin up to speed in a few seconds.

D) After those few seconds, it should be drawing enough vacuum in the heat exchanger to trigger a switch which allows the gas valve to open. You might hear this click, but you should hear the gas flowing to the burners. If you want to test this (though it is a fail-safe condition), pinch or disconnect the hose from the draft inducer. With that hose disabled, the gas should not come on, and the furnace should shut down (it might try again a few minutes later, depending on your control board).

E) The gas should ignite across all burners in a few seconds. Check the appearance of the flame (see youtube videos if you don't know what to look for).

F) About 60 Sec later, the air handler (room air blower) should spin up. IMPORTANT - Monitor the flame as this happens - the appearance should not change, that could indicate a leak in the heat exchanger - the blower pressure can drive air into the flame, making it flicker or change colors.

G) Monitor that flame occasionally through a cycle. At the end of the cycle, the flame will shut down, then the draft inducer, and about 60 Sec later, the blower motor will shut down.

That is harder to type than do. And the advantage is, if you do this routinely throughout the season, you are far more likely to catch any problems early, compared to an annual check. I tend to just listen whenever I'm near the furnace when it starts, and will view the flame whenever I think of it, but probably at least once per month.

Other than that, just a little general cleaning, dusting, make sure no obstructions (mouse nests), etc. I have removed the burner, and brushed out the heat exchanger, but there really was no build up, probably not needed.

This cycle is only slightly different for the newer furnaces with an ignitor in place of a standing pilot, and I've seen youtube videos where they show ho to clean the ignitor as a preventative maintenance procedure.

Yes, I think DIY in this case is better and cheaper than an annual service by pro. An oil-fired furnace is a different beast, never had one, but I think that requires some sophisticated exhaust gas analyzer to get the fuel/air mix right.

And even if you feel better with the pro - I'd still suggest you learn how to observe the normal condition, for your own safety. Any thing out of whack, call a pro if needed, before something bad happens, and before the next annual check up.

-ERD50

Good list, but I would add one important check: The flue should be checked for cracks, voids, broken tile, anything that can allow exhaust gas to enter the house.

 

[Texas Proud]

Thanks for that 'inside' view! The tech that added the 2# marked that he replaced the caps on the schrader valves. Now, I've read that those are just dust caps, and the valve itself should be doing the sealing. But he did replace them with metal caps that have an o-ring in them, so that might be a reasonable band-aid fix. I understand replacing the valves is significantly more work, and this did get us through mid-August to the end of that season at least. I really don't want to add any more R-22 at this point, I doubt we would make it till fall, and it would just be good money after bad.

I definitely won't allow them to re-use any existing refrigerant lines. If they even suggest that I will probably scratch them off the list!

It's a short run anyhow, and while the spot isn't the greatest aesthetic-wise, the alternative spots worth doing are very far on the other end of the house, and I'd actually prefer to have it where I can keep a better eye on it.

-ERD50

Be aware that if they do not reuse your lines then they probably will be on the outside of your house... they do not want to put them inside the wall going up... that just might be the people I had, but a couple of companies told me that is what they did...

 

[REWahoo]

Reading all these comments about how a particular brand has been trouble prone for one individual yet reliable for another reinforces the importance of getting a good installation. I have to think many of the problems and early failures are directly related to the lack of quality workmanship when the unit was installed.

 

[jazz4cash]

Our Goodman unit was replaced with a Carrier which has been great but I have mixed feelings about buying another unit from them after the stunt they pulled transferring production from Indy to Mexico. I know some folks that were burned by that decision.


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[eytonxav]

Why not? Mine are copper tubing that run inside the wall up to the attic and across to the evaporator. They were brazed to the new units and work fine.

Agree, I assume the lines can be pressure tested for leaks. Most of the leaks I am aware of usually occur inside the coils vs the lines.

 

[travelover]

Reading all these comments about how a particular brand has been trouble prone for one individual yet reliable for another reinforces the importance of getting a good installation. I have to think many of the problems and early failures are directly related to the lack of quality workmanship when the unit was installed.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. After my installers left I cut off all their AC evaporator / humidifier / furnace condenser drain plumbing and redid it. With lots of minerals in the water, it would have plugged up in no time with the shallow slope. Plus they did not add a drip nipple to the drain exit, so the water was clinging to the pipe and running backward on the outside of the pipe until it dripped on the floor. And the plenum adapter they fabricated leaked like a sieve - I had to caulk it to stop the air leaks.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I definitely won't allow them to re-use any existing refrigerant lines. If they even suggest that I will probably scratch them off the list.-ERD50

Why not? Mine are copper tubing that run inside the wall up to the attic and across to the evaporator. They were brazed to the new units and work fine.

OK, in our case the A/C compressor is just outside the area where the furnace is. The tubing is all flexible tubing that bends around from furnace, up to the floor joists, out the wall to the compressor. I wouldn't feel good about reusing those, as they would need to be bent around to fit the new stuff. Be easy to get a minor kink that isn't leaking yet.

Good list, but I would add one important check: The flue should be checked for cracks, voids, broken tile, anything that can allow exhaust gas to enter the house.

Good point. We have a chimney liner - the original furnace was low efficiency, so they ran a new liner ( 3" ~ 4"?), "B-Vent" I think it was called. The higher the efficiency, the lower the exhaust gasses, so the smaller the vent needs to be to ensure a good heat rise/flow. I'm pretty sure those are very reliable, and I wouldn't know how to inspect it, other than an inspection camera all the way down? BTW, those have become very cheap now, USB connection to computer - I might buy one just to have another gizmo/toy to play with.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

We have a chimney liner - the original furnace was low efficiency, so they ran a new liner ( 3" ~ 4"?), "B-Vent" I think it was called. The higher the efficiency, the lower the exhaust gasses, so the smaller the vent needs to be to ensure a good heat rise/flow. I'm pretty sure those are very reliable, and I wouldn't know how to inspect it, other than an inspection camera all the way down?

Yep, they won't be able to use that B-Vent if you go with the 92% eff furnace (or any condensing furnace). It'll need to be PVC (IIRC, there was also a type of stainless steel pipe that was approved for this, very pricey).
Running the intake and exhaust pipes with PVC is usually a pretty easy job provided there's a handy nearby exterior wall with no "conflicts." I happened to have a thick interior wall above my furnace ("thick" because it was a "wet wall" with a waste drain there), so I just put my intake and exhaust pipes for my furnace up through that and to the roof. I was a little worried that the intake pipe might get condensation on the outside (cold winter air), so I wrapped it with some thin adhesive foam insulation and I've never had a problem.

 

[rayinpenn]

I replaced the old furnace and ad a few years back with high efficiency York furnace and ac unit. The upstairs never seemed to be as cool as it should have been - the variable speed 3 ton unit resolved all that. No problems at all.

Now let me tell you about the Yotul gas stoves I have (look like old coal stoves) big one in the kitchen den area and a small one in the living room - I bought the second one because the wife likes to read in the living room and I felt guilty. They are a joy - this old man loves nothing better then sitting by one on a crisp cold morning. Coffee cup and tablet in hand it is wonderful. They are also cheaper to run and yes they heat the whole house..a little cooler upstairs but that just right...

Some time in September (God willing) I'll walk down the stairs and I'll feel and smell the heat and I'll know fall has arrived.. They are my weapons against the cold. They work during power outages too...



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[HadEnuff]

I scanned this thread title about 20 times and my brain translated it to

"Buying a Goddamn Furnace"....and I never opened it because of the anger. I hate it when my brain moves letters around like that.

 

[ERD50]

I scanned this thread title about 20 times and my brain translated it to

"Buying a Goddamn Furnace"....and I never opened it because of the anger. I hate it when my brain moves letters around like that.

Hopefully, this experience does not go that way!

The sales guy was out yesterday, I still feel good about this so far. He was very straight and detailed, will provide quotes today on all the variations/options we talked about.

DW mentioned this at work, and another person used this company and was pleased. Though that doesn't mean too much to me, some people would not know a good install from another, but adds to the good reviews on Yelp.

He discussed the whole house dehumidifier, we will see, but it sounds similar in price to a 2-stage A/C, so I don't see the point in having a third system with associated potential problems. Could make a lot of sense for high humidity in cooler climates (like Trombone-Al's issue, in another thread).

-ERD50

 

[eytonxav]

He discussed the whole house dehumidifier, we will see, but it sounds similar in price to a 2-stage A/C, so I don't see the point in having a third system with associated potential problems. Could make a lot of sense for high humidity in cooler climates (like Trombone-Al's issue, in another thread).

-ERD50

I'm confused, did you mean its a third system in addition to the heating and cooling? It goes inline, so I was thinking of everything as one integrated system. Perhaps your AC and furnace are not integrated as a single system? Take a look at this link:
Why Your Whole House Needs a Dehumidifier - Servair

 

[stephenson]

Hi All,


I got hung up on the loss of refrigerant ... is this the basis for the decision to replace?


If so, would it not be far less expensive to find out where the leak is? Around fittings or a seal in the compressor?


If everything else is operating normally, it would seem repair is rational approach ...


In northern IL, the big issue is heating, obviously ...will take a LONG time to pay back difference in e between 82 and 92 furnace ...??

 

[ERD50]

I'm confused, did you mean its a third system in addition to the heating and cooling? It goes inline, so I was thinking of everything as one integrated system. Perhaps your AC and furnace are not integrated as a single system? Take a look at this link:
Why Your Whole House Needs a Dehumidifier - Servair

A de-humidifier would be a third system, the furnace and A/C being the first two. Yes, they share a few components (air handler/blower, and some sheet metal and thermostat), but they are still separate systems. As your link says, the de-humidifier can run separate from the A/C - must have its own compressor, right?

Just because they are "integrated" into a common case does not mean they aren't separate systems. Gas furnace, electrical A/C. - not a combo heat-pump system.

Hi All,

I got hung up on the loss of refrigerant ... is this the basis for the decision to replace?

If so, would it not be far less expensive to find out where the leak is? Around fittings or a seal in the compressor?

If everything else is operating normally, it would seem repair is rational approach ...

In northern IL, the big issue is heating, obviously ...will take a LONG time to pay back difference in e between 82 and 92 furnace ...??

Loss of refrigerant in a +24 y/o air conditioner, and a 24 y/o furnace. So I plan to replace both at the same time - there can be some benefits to this.

I wasn't very interested in going beyond the 82% furnace, but I ran the numbers and actually, it looks like ~ 3-4 year payback for the higher efficiencies, even at my conservative use of heat (turn it way down at night and when I'm out, wear sweaters and slippers most of the heating season). Maybe less with the energy star rebates. And there may some advantage to going to variable speed motor with a 2-stage A/C.

We can go a long time in summer w/o any A/C at all - but when we need it we need it! It can get 90's/90's heat/humidity for a week a few times a year. That's just uncomfortable, and our house doesn't get a lot of shade.

-ERD50

 

[travelover]

.......... wear sweaters and slippers most of the heating season.........

You'll be surprised at how much warmer you'll feel with pants on.

 

[eytonxav]

A de-humidifier would be a third system, the furnace and A/C being the first two. Yes, they share a few components (air handler/blower, and some sheet metal and thermostat), but they are still separate systems. As your link says, the de-humidifier can run separate from the A/C - must have its own compressor, right?


-ERD50

OK, I thought you were segregating those functions. I have usually just referred to everything simply as an HVAC system. I am not sure of the internal design of the dehumidifier, but assumed everything within the dehumidifier is contained within the unit itself vs using another external compressor.

 

[ERD50]

Update

OK, I'm going lose any DIY and LBYM cred I had (short explanation below), but I'm going ahead with the highest level the guy quoted me, and I'm not going to bother with additional quotes.

With my previous DIY repairs, I was able to stretch this furnace out to last 24 years, and the A/C is older. I'm justifying a little 'splurge' for the best comfort level, and for that, I feel we need a 2-stage A/C, and that really requires a variable speed furnace - so it adds up. I'm also going with a new whole house humidifier (previous original unit needed repairs, and the new ones are easier to open for annual cleaning). And.... we are having the compressor moved from right near the patio and under the kitchen window, to the side of the house. And.... the water heater is the original - I can't believe this thing is still functioning from 1986! The replacement water heater has a powered damper, so that will reduce air infiltration. And of course the higher eff% furnace has PVC air in and out, so less air infiltration as well. Whew!

And it turns out, the difference between his 'good' and 'better' quotes was slight (< $200, main diff was 13 vs 16 SEER) - the various rebates offset almost all of the delta. And only the 'best' included the 2-stage A/C. And the 'best' qualifies for some added discounts and another $300 in tax credits (the key is a 13 EER - different from the SEER rating - and only the Trane high end met that). And, at the high level, the difference in price between Trane and Amana (Goodman) looks like < $100 after tax adjustment, so I went Trane.

I was surprised, looking at the prices at Alpine ( alpinehomeair.com ), that going from the 80's% to 92% and to 96% actually had a pretty short payback of ~ 3-4 years, even with my stingy use of heat (turned way down at night, often low to mid 60's during the day when I'm home, maybe 68 in the evening). But there was also the comfort factor (2 stage A/C to reduce humidity and handle the hottest days, and variable speed fan for better circulation). I didn't really do the same comp with these quotes, as the higher eff% was really tied into the comfort requirements I set.

About $1400 delta (before Fed tax credit/deduction) to go up to the 2-stage A/C and higher level furnace to support that. There will be some offset in lower bills, and if the unit lasts 14 years (it should - just easy math), that's roughly $100 per year amortized, less with gas/electric savings.He took room sizes, vents sizes/amounts/ orientation, some estimates of insulation. I had told him our 80% 125,000 BTU furnace didn't seem to run much past ~ 2/3 duty cycle in even the coldest weather, and he came up with 100,000 BTU of the higher eff% models, so that makes sense to me.

Back to some aspects of my OP, yes, I still think Goodman makes a lot of sense for a DIY, but this was a big job, more than I wanted to tackle. For a basic furnace replacement, w/o having to dink with the A/C, a handy DIY would probably be well served by the Goodman, IMO. And it appears the price delta between Goodman/Amana and other brands becomes less the higher up in features/eff% you go.

I've had a lot of responsibility for extended family this past year, and it has made it near impossible to devote large blocks of time to any project, so just no way will I DIY this one (I probably wouldn't anyway - this is a big job, moving compressor, running new PVC in/out), and no, I'm not even going to spend the time/effort for multiple quotes. I got a good feeling from this guy, no pushy sales, he really knew his stuff, considered a lot of alternatives and options, and they got good reviews on-line, and we got a good reference from a friend. Tha'ts more important to me than some $ difference. At this point, I'm 'applying' all my past 'scrimp-and-save' tokens to this job. Rationalization mode ON. And of course, I'd like to get this done before the next heat wave, or company comes during even a warm spell.

Install is next Friday, looks like we won't have too much hot weather before then, and the nights stay cool, so that helps.

Only downside other than $$$ (and he laughed at me for this) - I have to give up my old-school mercury Honeywell thermostat! The two-stage looks at temperature deltas (though it can be set up for a timed function I think). Just like volume controls on audio gear, I like to just turn a knob, not push buttons up and down. Hopefully the UI on the thermostat is good, and cranking up/down a few degrees, or 10 degrees at night is easy (no, I don't use timed or 'learned' functions - I don't have a schedule to learn).

I guess I should have done a tl;dr version, but I didn't. Hah!

-ERD50

 

[REWahoo]

OK, I'm going lose any DIY and LBYM cred I had (short explanation below), but I'm going ahead with the highest level the guy quoted me, and I'm not going to bother with additional quotes.

ERD50's account has obviously been hijacked. I hope his identity hasn't also been stolen and someone isn't using his credit card to pay for lap dances...

 

[ERD50]

ERD50's account has obviously been hijacked. I hope his identity hasn't also been stolen and someone isn't using his credit card to pay for lap dances...

Hah! Is that why I'm seeing ads for lap dances in the banner above? (I turned off ad-block on this site for a while as an experiment). At least that money isn't being wasted!

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

Good for you, live a little and get the good stuff!

Yeah you don't want to DIY a HVAC, you have to have special equipment just to drain the refrigerant from the old one w/o releasing into the atmosphere. Not to mention the stuff is big and heavy and you'll hurt yourself. And a day in the hospital would cost more than the whole install anyway.

Enjoy your new comfort level -

 

[eytonxav]

Now you just need a wireless thermostat to control from your smart phone, and you will be in retirement heaven. Enjoy the new system!

 

[samclem]

All the research you did, and you explanation of your requirements to the tech, probably went a long way toward reducing the chances of getting ripped off. It sounds like you'll get a great unit that will probably keep you guys comfortable for another couple of decades.
Don't get rid of that old thermostat--put it on your display shelf next to the dial phone and the incandescent bulb for show-and-tell when young-uns come over. You can even take off the cover and show them what mercury looks like. Or leave it installed as the "placebo/placation/decoy thermostat" for use when "always hot/always cold" visitors come over.
I hope the installation goes well.
I can't believe you are gonna pay somebody to have all this fun.

 

[Ian S]

Don't get rid of that old thermostat--put it on your display shelf next to the dial phone and the incandescent bulb for show-and-tell when young-uns come over. You can even take off the cover and show them what mercury looks like. Or leave it installed as the "placebo/placation/decoy thermostat" for use when "always hot/always cold" visitors come over.

Replaced a 20 y.o. gaspac on the roof last month. Not a lot of choice for 5 ton residential two stage units so I went with Trane. The old mercury thermostat had been replaced on the last install. This time a new wi-fi thermostat was installed and it seems to work quite well. The wi-fi is nice for remote control using your smartphone. The thermostat can be used to control other items in the home via the Nexia system. Also has a lit screen which is far easier to see than the old 1990's digital thermostat. With record heat near 120F this weekend, we got the new system just in time!

 

[travelover]

I think you will really like the variable speed fan and the two stage AC. I'm amazed at how closely my system keeps the temperature to the set point and how well the AC dehumidifies.