Hot Water Heater Warning

[RAE]

Hmm, I've wondered about my 15yr old water heater, may be I should pre-preemptively replace it. I'm just worried that generally the old stuff was built better and the new one I get will probably only last half as long. In a 'don't try to fix what ain't broken' kind of way.

Same here. Ours is about 16 years old now, and still looks okay (to me), and works fine. It is in the (unfinished) basement also, not far from the drain. I am inclined to just go with it until a problem develops, unless I can be convinced that there is a compelling reason to replace it sooner.

 

[meierlde]

Everyone I know that has installed an electric tankless heater has regretted it. Maybe not you for now, but you will at some point.

The main problem with an electric tankless water heater is that to get a decent rate of flow you need a huge electric service. 120 amps at 240 volts or more, because water has a high specific heat. For example if you look at lowes if you want 5.3 gpm the heater needs 120 amps at 240 volts. (depending on the input water temperature) If you go to lowes web site you can get a copy of a guide that tells you what flow you can get at various temperature differentials.
When my parents built the house I livein we put in a tankless electric water heater in the kitchen, but it could not provide hot water to the dishwasher but was great at getting hot water in a cup. If you go to lowes site you can download the eemax manual. The biggest one needs 4 40 amp 240 v circuits, which would in almost all cases mean a new service entrance and main panel required.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I must be really ignorant but I have never heard of a hot water heater in an attic. Lived in So. Cal. all my life and seen them in garages mostly or a separate ground level outside closet, but never seen one in an attic. It seems like such an insane idea to me. They all eventually fail, who would design a house with a thing like that in the attic?

 

[ERD50]

Has anyone got experience with an active anode rod? It involves replacing the sacrificial magnesium or aluminum anode rod in the water heater with one that plugs in and is permanent. This seems like a good way to get a very long life out of a water heater, and is certainly easier than checking and replacing the anode rod every 5 years or so (few people actually do that, anyway).

Here's an example of a unit available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Corro-Protec...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SWEK3QNR790MTFPS64CN

The same concept is used to protect ships, pipelines, etc from corrosion. I just wonder if there are practical reasons it's not more popular for water heaters. Spending under $200 to protect the water heater from rust-out for a LONG time seems like a bargain.

No experience, but I thought these were far more expensive (maybe that was just a quote from my HVAC guy?). $100 sounds good to me, I think I paid that much to have my anode rod replaced due to the sulfur oder that developed with our new water heater (I didn't want to risk trying to take the old one out, I know they get stuck over time - but the reviews say an impact driver will do the trick, I'll try to remember that).

The reviews look really good, and some of the negative reviews are not really about the product.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

I must be really ignorant but I have never heard of a hot water heater in an attic. Lived in So. Cal. all my life and seen them in garages mostly or a separate ground level outside closet, but never seen one in an attic. It seems like such an insane idea to me. They all eventually fail, who would design a house with a thing like that in the attic?

Come to Texas, land of the attic hot water heater.

 

[audreyh1]

It is not just 50 gallons...... the amount of water leaked could be virtually infinite if you aren't there to shut off the water supply immediately. We had a pressure tank fail about 45 minutes after returning home once. Had it failed while we were gone....the well pump can provide a lot of water!

All I can say is it was lucky that you had caught it in time.

One reason why I shut off the well pump when shutting down my Dads house.

 

[pjigar]

Has anyone got experience with an active anode rod? It involves replacing the sacrificial magnesium or aluminum anode rod in the water heater with one that plugs in and is permanent. This seems like a good way to get a very long life out of a water heater, and is certainly easier than checking and replacing the anode rod every 5 years or so (few people actually do that, anyway).

Here's an example of a unit available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Corro-Protec...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SWEK3QNR790MTFPS64CN

The same concept is used to protect ships, pipelines, etc from corrosion. I just wonder if there are practical reasons it's not more popular for water heaters. Spending under $200 to protect the water heater from rust-out for a LONG time seems like a bargain.

I have replaced anodes on couple of heaters and they do extend the heater life but you have to stay on top of replacement regimes. The tank will start to corrode once the anode rod is gone. Also flush the tank every time you replace the rod to get the gunk from the corroded anode out of the tank. You will need lot of leverage and proper 6-sided socket to dislodge the anode from the tank.

PS: By the way, I am talking about the traditional sacrificial magnesium anode rod.

 

[REWahoo]

One reason why I shut off the well pump when shutting down my Dads house.

When we built the house I had a valve installed in our laundry room to shut off the the water line running from the well to the house. I close it any time we are going to be gone overnight.

 

[FUEGO]

Due to the location of the hot water heater in my crawlspace my plumber suggested tankless is in my future to get up to code and get proper ventilation. It's going to be kind of expensive to upgrade all the fittings, plumbing, and gas to incorporate the tankless underneath there ($2300 including a good tankless heater from Rinnai) but I've got the $ for it.

More concerning is operational performance. Some in the thread mentioned needing a large enough flowrate to keep it producing hot water. This was kind of a nightmare of ours in an airbnb we rented in Lisbon Portugal - the hot water had to be blasting to keep the tankless unit burning. My solution was to turn on the sink hot water to full blast and then set the shower hot water to a comfortable level. Otherwise the shower would be way too hot and too much pressure.

Is this an issue with modern tankless whole house hot water heaters? The Rinnai models I've looked at show 0.4 GPM as a minimum flow rate. I feel like that's a pretty low flow rate so we wouldn't experience the need to put the hot water on full blast to keep the heat flowing. Any experience from people with tankless units?

 

[txtig]

I must be really ignorant but I have never heard of a hot water heater in an attic. Lived in So. Cal. all my life and seen them in garages mostly or a separate ground level outside closet, but never seen one in an attic. It seems like such an insane idea to me. They all eventually fail, who would design a house with a thing like that in the attic?

I’ve got two of them in my attic. Last replaced about 6 or 7 years ago. I’ve been hearing a bit of popping and rumbling noises coming from my attic for a couple of months now. We have some really hard water here that is not good for water heaters, and I haven’t drained them regularly like I should have. I think I will replace both of them soon just to be safe. If I can get one of my sons to come over to do the heavy lifting, hooking them up is a piece of cake.

 

[Texas Proud]

I’ve got two of them in my attic. Last replaced about 6 or 7 years ago. I’ve been hearing a bit of popping and rumbling noises coming from my attic for a couple of months now. We have some really hard water here that is not good for water heaters, and I haven’t drained them regularly like I should have. I think I will replace both of them soon just to be safe. If I can get one of my sons to come over to do the heavy lifting, hooking them up is a piece of cake.

You can get a whole house water softener that would help... current house has one and it seems to work great... not sure how hard the water was before, but all it cost is some electricity and salt...

 

[skipro33]

The reason older tankless water heaters (hot water heater is redunant) had high flow rates to stay on is because the heating element or burner as either on or off, and if the water flow wasn't sufficient to absorb the BTU's being generated, the unit would burn up. This was accomplished with a flow switch; enough flow and the switch would kick in and the heating element or burner was activated. Now days, the flow switch isn't on/off, it's stepped. And the heating element or burner is staged so that the BTU's can be increased as flow demand is increased. Of course the old style are still being marketed so keep your eye out when shopping to be sure the unit you are getting has a variable flow rate with heating element that will track the flow.

I installed one of those older systems, an electric one. It stunk! Hated it when I'd turn down the hot water in the shower and it would cut out altogether because the flow relay had kicked the heating element off. It's all a real jungle of pipes to route it all as well.

As a precaution, if you turn off your water when you go away, then turn off your water heater. A small leak and the tank could drain enough and the heater kicks on. Without water, it could burn up.

 

[samclem]

I have replaced anodes on couple of heaters and they do extend the heater life but you have to stay on top of replacement regimes. The tank will start to corrode once the anode rod is gone. Also flush the tank every time you replace the rod to get the gunk from the corroded anode out of the tank. You will need lot of leverage and proper 6-sided socket to dislodge the anode from the tank.

PS: By the way, I am talking about the traditional sacrificial magnesium anode rod.

Also, one problem that can be encountered when replacing the anode rod is a lack of overhead clearance to slide a new long rod into place
So, they sell sacrificial rods that are a series of short lengths connected by a wire, it looks like a string of sausages.

I'm working hard on renovating a house for my daughter and am replacing the old water heater. I'm thinking about going with the powered, active anode rod from the get-go. Sure, I might have warranty problems if the tank dies early and I've not used the factory anode, but I just know that replacing that anode once it has been in service for 5 years or so will be a big hassle.

 

[Dash man]

We just replaced two water heater tanks with Navian 240A natural gas Tankless water heaters. The flow rate is great and adjusting the temperature is just pushing a button. One is for a beach rental property that sleeps up to thirteen, so continuous hot water is critical. So far they’re working great!

 

[Music Lover]

I've never understood the fascination with tankless. The only thing they do better is provide unlimited hot water...something which very few people need. Savings are far overstated and are rarely if ever paid back, they are more complicated, far more expensive, and some of them require regular maintenance.

When my regular HW tank fails, I will buy a new one for a few hundred dollars and install it in less than an hour myself.

 

[FUEGO]

The reason older tankless water heaters (hot water heater is redunant) had high flow rates to stay on is because the heating element or burner as either on or off, and if the water flow wasn't sufficient to absorb the BTU's being generated, the unit would burn up. This was accomplished with a flow switch; enough flow and the switch would kick in and the heating element or burner was activated. Now days, the flow switch isn't on/off, it's stepped. And the heating element or burner is staged so that the BTU's can be increased as flow demand is increased. Of course the old style are still being marketed so keep your eye out when shopping to be sure the unit you are getting has a variable flow rate with heating element that will track the flow.

I installed one of those older systems, an electric one. It stunk! Hated it when I'd turn down the hot water in the shower and it would cut out altogether because the flow relay had kicked the heating element off. It's all a real jungle of pipes to route it all as well.

As a precaution, if you turn off your water when you go away, then turn off your water heater. A small leak and the tank could drain enough and the heater kicks on. Without water, it could burn up.

Thanks for the info. I dug into water heaters a bit last night and read through the Rinnai cutsheets. Those are the ones my plumber recommended and they look to be about 2x the price of the cheapest on the market however they come with a very long warranty.

I see what you mean about variable gas flow since it mentions something like 10,000 BTU up to 200,000 BTU heating which is a huge dynamic range. 0.4 to 6.6 GPM at +50F temperature gain (which would easily cover 2 simultaneous showers running in the dead of winter when our input water is 40-45F). I'll be sure to check whatever we end up choosing to make sure it has a variable strength burner and can handle low flow rates.

 

[FUEGO]

I've never understood the fascination with tankless. The only thing they do better is provide unlimited hot water...something which very few people need. Savings are far overstated and are rarely if ever paid back, they are more complicated, far more expensive, and some of them require regular maintenance.

When my regular HW tank fails, I will buy a new one for a few hundred dollars and install it in less than an hour myself.

I feel the same way but when we replace the water heater next time, we won't be able to install a tank unit due to it being out of code (low clearance, inadequate ventilation). Our options are build a hot water heater closet inside our house or install a tankless in the crawl space using most of the existing plumbing/gas supply or an external unit close to the existing water/gas connections. Or convert to electric hot water heat, add a new circuit (which probably means circuit breaker panel upgrade!), then pay several hundred per year extra in utilities for electric.

So it seems like going tankless gas water heater will have the lowest long term operating costs. We can size the unit properly and do fine with 5 people on a 40 gallon tank right now. Gas is cheap and burns hot. I understand there's an annual maintenance routine but I don't mind getting my hands dirty once per year (or outsourcing it and skipping a maintenance cycle to cut costs).

 

[sengsational]

As a PSA for those of you doing replacing, you might look into rebates with your utility company. This came in the bill this morning.

 

[skipro33]

FUEGO brings up a good point;
Some areas require a permit to replace a water heater. The only reason I'd even concern me is if, for some reason, I needed to file an insurance claim later and the insurance company discovered the water heater was not permitted. Some companies will use that as an excuse to either not pay or to delay. Maybe even to drop coverage. It's worth at least asking to see if one is needed.
In my county, it's required. Basically, in my county, if a permit was required on the original installation/construction, it's required when it's repaired or replaced.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove,
convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.

However, the county sells an annual permit, usually to contractors, so each job doesn't require one. If a contractor is used, check to be sure he's got the permit if required.

 

[Car-Guy]

I'm sure I've posted this here before (well maybe) but a just a few words about water heater expansion tanks since it may help someone.

A few years ago, my "problem free" ~8 year old water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve. (not a good sign). So I replaced the T&P valve, several times. It always started leaking again within a 15 minutes . Checked the water pressure on the incoming line and it was well over 100psi (WTF). So I installed a pressure regulator valve and cut the in coming pressure down to about 70 psi (which is actually still pretty high) The T&P valve still dripped. Ok, bit the bullet and replaced the water heater. Guess what, the new water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve too within 15 minutes. Ok, time to read the instructions and on line info. After reading more than I ever wanted to about water heaters, I discovered what an expansion tank does. Hum, ok, sounds like it's worth a try. Less than $100 and 45 mins of work and it was installed. Fixed the dripping problem!

Apparently, the local water company had recently increased the water pressure on our community water system and installed checked valves but they never said anything to the customer base?

 

[KM]

Our HWH failed at 3 years old. They replaced it under warranty for free. Thankfully it's located in our basement. I never realized people have them in attics.....but I guess if you don't HAVE a basement, it makes sense.

Given the amount of water we found in our basement that day - I'd HATE having one in the attic though [emoji15]

 

[ERD50]

I'm sure I've posted this here before (well maybe) but a just a few words about water heater expansion tanks since it may help someone.

A few years ago, my "problem free" ~8 year old water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve. (not a good sign). So I replaced the T&P valve, several times. It always started leaking again within a 15 minutes . Checked the water pressure on the incoming line and it was well over 100psi (WTF). So I installed a pressure regulator valve and cut the in coming pressure down to about 70 psi (which is actually still pretty high) The T&P valve still dripped. Ok, bit the bullet and replaced the water heater. Guess what, the new water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve too within 15 minutes. Ok, time to read the instructions and on line info. After reading more than I ever wanted to about water heaters, I discovered what an expansion tank does. Hum, ok, sounds like it's worth a try. Less than $100 and 45 mins of work and it was installed. Fixed the dripping problem!

Apparently, the local water company had recently increased the water pressure on our community water system and installed checked valves but they never said anything to the customer base?

The check valve is the issue. When your water heater takes in cold water to heat it (see - cold water, that's why they are NOT called "HOT water heaters"! ). the water expands as it's heated. With a check valve and the faucets closed, there is no where for this almost totally incompressible liquid to go. So the pressure rises and strains the tank and plumbing.

So with a check valve, you really want an expansion tank. W/O a valve, the pressure can push back against the municipal supply, and that will absorb the extra quart or whatever it is (I'd need to look it up) from expansion.

-ERD50

 

[Car-Guy]

the water expands as it's heated. With a check valve and the faucets closed, there is no where for this almost totally incompressible liquid to go. So the pressure rises and strains the tank and plumbing.

So with a check valve, you really want an expansion tank. W/O a valve, the pressure can push back against the municipal supply, and that will absorb the extra quart or whatever it is (I'd need to look it up) from expansion.

-ERD50

Yep, learned it all the hard way.

 

[nativenewenglander]

Hmm, I've wondered about my 15yr old water heater, may be I should pre-preemptively replace it. I'm just worried that generally the old stuff was built better and the new one I get will probably only last half as long. In a 'don't try to fix what ain't broken' kind of way.

Just before a trip at Thanksgiving I was in the basement and noticed our hot water heater was leaking at the seam. I bought a new one at Lowes, which has an on board computer. It learns your use pattern and heats water during the times of high use. It's too early to know how much cheaper it will be to run. I can tell the insulation is much better as you can't feel any heat through the jacket. At 15 years you are probably on borrowed time.

 

[Music Lover]

Just before a trip at Thanksgiving I was in the basement and noticed our hot water heater was leaking at the seam. I bought a new one at Lowes, which has an on board computer. It learns your use pattern and heats water during the times of high use. It's too early to know how much cheaper it will be to run. I can tell the insulation is much better as you can't feel any heat through the jacket. At 15 years you are probably on borrowed time.

Another "learning" appliance?

I'll opt out of that feature the next time I buy a new HW tank...