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Old 01-06-2018, 09:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by skipro33 View Post
The reason older tankless water heaters (hot water heater is redunant) had high flow rates to stay on is because the heating element or burner as either on or off, and if the water flow wasn't sufficient to absorb the BTU's being generated, the unit would burn up. This was accomplished with a flow switch; enough flow and the switch would kick in and the heating element or burner was activated. Now days, the flow switch isn't on/off, it's stepped. And the heating element or burner is staged so that the BTU's can be increased as flow demand is increased. Of course the old style are still being marketed so keep your eye out when shopping to be sure the unit you are getting has a variable flow rate with heating element that will track the flow.

I installed one of those older systems, an electric one. It stunk! Hated it when I'd turn down the hot water in the shower and it would cut out altogether because the flow relay had kicked the heating element off. It's all a real jungle of pipes to route it all as well.

As a precaution, if you turn off your water when you go away, then turn off your water heater. A small leak and the tank could drain enough and the heater kicks on. Without water, it could burn up.
Thanks for the info. I dug into water heaters a bit last night and read through the Rinnai cutsheets. Those are the ones my plumber recommended and they look to be about 2x the price of the cheapest on the market however they come with a very long warranty.

I see what you mean about variable gas flow since it mentions something like 10,000 BTU up to 200,000 BTU heating which is a huge dynamic range. 0.4 to 6.6 GPM at +50F temperature gain (which would easily cover 2 simultaneous showers running in the dead of winter when our input water is 40-45F). I'll be sure to check whatever we end up choosing to make sure it has a variable strength burner and can handle low flow rates.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:03 AM   #42
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I've never understood the fascination with tankless. The only thing they do better is provide unlimited hot water...something which very few people need. Savings are far overstated and are rarely if ever paid back, they are more complicated, far more expensive, and some of them require regular maintenance.

When my regular HW tank fails, I will buy a new one for a few hundred dollars and install it in less than an hour myself.
I feel the same way but when we replace the water heater next time, we won't be able to install a tank unit due to it being out of code (low clearance, inadequate ventilation). Our options are build a hot water heater closet inside our house or install a tankless in the crawl space using most of the existing plumbing/gas supply or an external unit close to the existing water/gas connections. Or convert to electric hot water heat, add a new circuit (which probably means circuit breaker panel upgrade!), then pay several hundred per year extra in utilities for electric.

So it seems like going tankless gas water heater will have the lowest long term operating costs. We can size the unit properly and do fine with 5 people on a 40 gallon tank right now. Gas is cheap and burns hot. I understand there's an annual maintenance routine but I don't mind getting my hands dirty once per year (or outsourcing it and skipping a maintenance cycle to cut costs).
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:12 AM   #43
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As a PSA for those of you doing replacing, you might look into rebates with your utility company. This came in the bill this morning.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:25 AM   #44
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FUEGO brings up a good point;
Some areas require a permit to replace a water heater. The only reason I'd even concern me is if, for some reason, I needed to file an insurance claim later and the insurance company discovered the water heater was not permitted. Some companies will use that as an excuse to either not pay or to delay. Maybe even to drop coverage. It's worth at least asking to see if one is needed.
In my county, it's required. Basically, in my county, if a permit was required on the original installation/construction, it's required when it's repaired or replaced.
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Any owner or authorized agent who intends to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove,
convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.
However, the county sells an annual permit, usually to contractors, so each job doesn't require one. If a contractor is used, check to be sure he's got the permit if required.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:27 AM   #45
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I'm sure I've posted this here before (well maybe) but a just a few words about water heater expansion tanks since it may help someone.

A few years ago, my "problem free" ~8 year old water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve. (not a good sign). So I replaced the T&P valve, several times. It always started leaking again within a 15 minutes . Checked the water pressure on the incoming line and it was well over 100psi (WTF). So I installed a pressure regulator valve and cut the in coming pressure down to about 70 psi (which is actually still pretty high) The T&P valve still dripped. Ok, bit the bullet and replaced the water heater. Guess what, the new water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve too within 15 minutes. Ok, time to read the instructions and on line info. After reading more than I ever wanted to about water heaters, I discovered what an expansion tank does. Hum, ok, sounds like it's worth a try. Less than $100 and 45 mins of work and it was installed. Fixed the dripping problem!

Apparently, the local water company had recently increased the water pressure on our community water system and installed checked valves but they never said anything to the customer base?
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:28 AM   #46
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Our HWH failed at 3 years old. They replaced it under warranty for free. Thankfully it's located in our basement. I never realized people have them in attics.....but I guess if you don't HAVE a basement, it makes sense.

Given the amount of water we found in our basement that day - I'd HATE having one in the attic though [emoji15]
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:45 AM   #47
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I'm sure I've posted this here before (well maybe) but a just a few words about water heater expansion tanks since it may help someone.

A few years ago, my "problem free" ~8 year old water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve. (not a good sign). So I replaced the T&P valve, several times. It always started leaking again within a 15 minutes . Checked the water pressure on the incoming line and it was well over 100psi (WTF). So I installed a pressure regulator valve and cut the in coming pressure down to about 70 psi (which is actually still pretty high) The T&P valve still dripped. Ok, bit the bullet and replaced the water heater. Guess what, the new water heater started dripping out of the T&P valve too within 15 minutes. Ok, time to read the instructions and on line info. After reading more than I ever wanted to about water heaters, I discovered what an expansion tank does. Hum, ok, sounds like it's worth a try. Less than $100 and 45 mins of work and it was installed. Fixed the dripping problem!

Apparently, the local water company had recently increased the water pressure on our community water system and installed checked valves but they never said anything to the customer base?
The check valve is the issue. When your water heater takes in cold water to heat it (see - cold water, that's why they are NOT called "HOT water heaters"! ). the water expands as it's heated. With a check valve and the faucets closed, there is no where for this almost totally incompressible liquid to go. So the pressure rises and strains the tank and plumbing.

So with a check valve, you really want an expansion tank. W/O a valve, the pressure can push back against the municipal supply, and that will absorb the extra quart or whatever it is (I'd need to look it up) from expansion.

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Old 01-06-2018, 11:12 AM   #48
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the water expands as it's heated. With a check valve and the faucets closed, there is no where for this almost totally incompressible liquid to go. So the pressure rises and strains the tank and plumbing.

So with a check valve, you really want an expansion tank. W/O a valve, the pressure can push back against the municipal supply, and that will absorb the extra quart or whatever it is (I'd need to look it up) from expansion.

-ERD50
Yep, learned it all the hard way.
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:28 AM   #49
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Hmm, I've wondered about my 15yr old water heater, may be I should pre-preemptively replace it. I'm just worried that generally the old stuff was built better and the new one I get will probably only last half as long. In a 'don't try to fix what ain't broken' kind of way.
Just before a trip at Thanksgiving I was in the basement and noticed our hot water heater was leaking at the seam. I bought a new one at Lowes, which has an on board computer. It learns your use pattern and heats water during the times of high use. It's too early to know how much cheaper it will be to run. I can tell the insulation is much better as you can't feel any heat through the jacket. At 15 years you are probably on borrowed time.
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:43 AM   #50
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Just before a trip at Thanksgiving I was in the basement and noticed our hot water heater was leaking at the seam. I bought a new one at Lowes, which has an on board computer. It learns your use pattern and heats water during the times of high use. It's too early to know how much cheaper it will be to run. I can tell the insulation is much better as you can't feel any heat through the jacket. At 15 years you are probably on borrowed time.
Another "learning" appliance?

I'll opt out of that feature the next time I buy a new HW tank...
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:46 AM   #51
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Another "learning" appliance?

I'll opt out of that feature the next time I buy a new HW tank...
Me, too. Invariably the $2 chip fails and the replacement cost is 50% of a whole new appliance.
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:53 AM   #52
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This is a good reminder to look at replacing HWH earlier. I had the last 2 HWH leak at exactly 10 years when I was trying to sell each house!. The house I bought with my downsize is 6 years old. May have to think about replacing it in a couple of years.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:14 PM   #53
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Ours is still going strong after 22 years. All these stories are making me nervous though.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:08 PM   #54
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I picked up a new USB water heater a few months ago. I keep it on my kitchen counter right next to my USB powered toaster.

Seriously, the last thing I want to happen in cold weather is for my aging water heater to give out. So I replaced my 12+ year old water heater a few years ago when I noticed that a slightly longer shower was using up the supply of hot water. Previously, I could do two high volume hot water tasks and still have some left over for a 3rd.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:33 PM   #55
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I must be really ignorant but I have never heard of a hot water heater in an attic. Lived in So. Cal. all my life and seen them in garages mostly or a separate ground level outside closet, but never seen one in an attic. It seems like such an insane idea to me. They all eventually fail, who would design a house with a thing like that in the attic?
+1.

I've never heard of a water heater in the attic. Most homes around here in NE have hot water tanks in the basement. Our current home is new construction with a tankless gas hot water heater (Rianni) located in a closet in our finished basement. We've lived here for seven years and never had a problem with hot water supply.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:54 PM   #56
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Another "learning" appliance?

I'll opt out of that feature the next time I buy a new HW tank...
Same here. Our water use schedule is irregular so it would be of limited value to us anyway, and it's just one more thing that can break.

This forum is the first time I'd ever heard of placing a water heater in the attic. It seems incredibly foolish to me. In small single story houses with no basement I've seen them in a closet with the furnace but never in an attic.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:08 PM   #57
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I feel the same way but when we replace the water heater next time, we won't be able to install a tank unit due to it being out of code (low clearance, inadequate ventilation).
Just to be sure--have you checked to be sure that your replacement water heater has to meet a revised code? That seems a bit unusual.
In the house I am working on now, I wanted to replace the electric water heater with a gas one, and save DD about $150/year in utilities bills. I found a safe way to route the flue and gas lines, and when I had the roof replaced I put the boot in place for the vent. Then I had the plumber out to get a price for some other work, he told me I couldn't put a gas water heater there. It is under a staircase, and gas water heaters are no longer allowed under staircases due to fire egress concerns. Seems a bit over the top to me (this is a two story house with other means of egress, I don't think gas WHs are nearly the fire threat of some other appliances (e.g. any clothes dryer)), but that's the new code. So, now I have an extra hole in my roof for a gas WH flue that I can't install. .
But, if I had a gas water heater there already, I could replace it with another gas WH (per my county building inspector), the rule just prohibits new installations of gas water heaters under staircases.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:11 PM   #58
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Another potential issue with replacing a water heater in the attic is the new efficiency standards that went into effect in 2015. Many (most) water heater manufacturers added more insulation to accomplish this, resulting in larger diameter tanks. The opening to your attic may be too small for the new water heater to fit. Not good.
I would assume that the manufacturers would increase the height of the tank so that a tank of the same capacity could still have the same diameter and fit through the opening to the attic.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:15 PM   #59
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I've never understood the fascination with tankless. The only thing they do better is provide unlimited hot water...something which very few people need. Savings are far overstated and are rarely if ever paid back, they are more complicated, far more expensive, and some of them require regular maintenance.

When my regular HW tank fails, I will buy a new one for a few hundred dollars and install it in less than an hour myself.
+1. And likewise for these new (holding tank) water heaters that allow you to communicate with them via wifi. What is it gonna tell me? What have I got to tell it? Needless complexity that drives up cost and reduces reliability.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:35 PM   #60
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This forum is the first time I'd ever heard of placing a water heater in the attic. It seems incredibly foolish to me. In small single story houses with no basement I've seen them in a closet with the furnace but never in an attic.
Here in south Texas it's common to have them in the attic along with the furnace and A/C evaporator coil and fan motor. It seems like contractors started putting them up there in the homes built starting in the 1970's. No basements here due to the high water table. I have thought about relocating the WH to the garage but the water supply lines would require a major relocation since they are fed through the walls and into the attic then dropped from there. It would be a PIA.
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