How to air condition a FROG (finished room over garage)

I wonder - would some photos of the Frog and the entrance to it be helpful?
 
His attitude about sizing doesn't seem terribly professional, does it? Then again, it's possible he did not bother to analyze and size the system, b/c the previous owner just directed him to "replace what's there."

This attitude is very typical. They'll just use a rule of thumb, maybe based on little more than the SF of the floor. Typically, the result is units that are too big for the requirement (additional capacity doesn't cost them very much--a 3 ton unit and a 4 ton unit may only be a few hundred dollars different), and reduces the chances of a callback. Oversize units keep the spaces cool enough, but don't remove sufficient moisture--it's easier to tell the client that all is well if the house is just constantly clammy, you can't tell them that things are fine if the temperature won't get down to the set point.

Oh, my. That heat load calculator asks for a lot of info that we can't lay our hands on. Especially insulation - except for the attic, which has about 16-18" of loose insulation, there's no telling what's in the walls, floors, ceilings. Even the garage under the Frog is drywalled.

And knowing the insulation level is important--you can be sure the guys who gave you the estimate never checked it.
I'm glad the garage ceiling has drywall, that's now required between a garage and habitable areas (it gives you time to get out in case of a garage fire).

If you want to go to the trouble, you can often tell about the insulation by looking beside the electrical outlet boxes. Turn off the power, remove the cover, and (sometimes) there will be a gap between the drywall and the box. You may see fiberglass there. You can also insert a bit of coathangar wire bent into a hook on the end into that gap and try to snag some insulation, to see what kind there is (again-- circuit breaker OFF). Use the same wire to see how deep the walls cavities are. If the cavities are 3.5" deep (2x4 walls) and the insulation is fiberglass, then it is an R13 wall (it >might< have additional insulation as sheathing). Between the garage and the FROG, you may be able to get a peek into the cavity to tell if it is insulated by removing a light fixture in the garage, or by checking around any receptacles in the ceiling (usually used for garage door openers). Hopefully, they did insulate the garage ceiling.

If you've got a hip roof over the FROG, I'm guessing you have knee walls (about 42" high) all around the room, likely with a small door you can open to use the area behind for storage. If so, you can tell everything you need to know about their heat loss by going into that back space and seeing how the knee walls are insulated.

If all of this is more trouble than you want to go to, you could ask the next person who comes out to do an actual heat load ("Manual J") calculation for that room--for heating and for cooling. If they charge you a couple of hundred dollars and they actually investigate all the factors (insulation, shading by trees, window types, etc) it will be probably be well worth the money. IMO, a reputable HVAC company would do it for free as part of the bid--how else can they know what type of equipment you need? They can't.
 
Last edited:
>>Any time we've stayed in a motel, the unit has been very noisy indeed. Trying to avoid that! The contractors claimed they have mini-splits in their own homes and that they are very quiet. But I haven't been in their homes, so how do I judge?

PTACs and large window ACs tend to be quite noisier than mini-splits because of a very simple reason: the mini-splits have their compressors and the exterior fans remotely located. In addition, the interior units or inside-air handlers universally use a long horizontal squirrel cage fan, which is a lot quieter. That's how they all have a longish shape.

Plus, one has to remember that in contrast to old AC units that wake you up when they turn on/off, the mini-splits slow down once the interior has been cooled down, and run very quietly at night because it is not as hot at night.

The key is they have "inverter technology" that can continuously vary the speed of the motor, much like how the motors in electric cars work. They don't run at a single speed like old ACs, nor at only 3 speeds like ceiling fans. The electronically controlled speed is continuously variable over the motor operating range.

The old motors run like a car driven by a driver with a lead foot. Full acceleration to the next traffic light, then stop. Then, full acceleration again. In engineering, we call it "bang-bang control" for systems that control their outputs by cycling on and off. That was the only way we could modulate anything then, by using an on/off switch.

Practically all current minisplits on the market use inverter motors. I would be surprised to see any old types being sold, but I guess some old stocks may still exist.

See: https://www.inventorairconditioner.com/blog/faq/what-is-the-inverter-technology-in-air-conditioners.

The curious may want to read about the "bang-bang control" devices that surround us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang–bang_control.
 
Last edited:
About the noise, my 18,000-BTU/hr Pioneer mini-split makes much less noise when running at its top speed than my 16' pedestal floor fan running at its lowest speed, and moves a lot of air.

Nuf' said. :)

PS. The outdoor unit also makes less noise than the normal AC of the same capacity. They really know how to make them better.

Do they last? Time will tell.
 
This attitude is very typical. They'll just use a rule of thumb, maybe based on little more than the SF of the floor. Typically, the result is units that are too big for the requirement (additional capacity doesn't cost them very much--a 3 ton unit and a 4 ton unit may only be a few hundred dollars different), and reduces the chances of a callback. Oversize units keep the spaces cool enough, but don't remove sufficient moisture--it's easier to tell the client that all is well if the house is just constantly clammy, you can't tell them that things are fine if the temperature won't get down to the set point...........
I know this is true for typical AC systems, but NW seems to feel that the mini splits are variable speed, so the issue of over sizing might not be so critical. In that case I'd go for 12,000 btu.


I still think the installation labor quote was excessive.
 
I know this is true for typical AC systems, but NW seems to feel that the mini splits are variable speed, so the issue of over sizing might not be so critical. In that case I'd go for 12,000 btu.
Yes, I agree, if the compressor itself is variable speed. In that case, a large unit would be fine (it would cool the space more quickly when you started using the FROG and the set point was well below the temp in the room). Also, if it is a heat pump it is possible that a larger capacity is driven by heating rather than cooling requirements.
 
I know this is true for typical AC systems, but NW seems to feel that the mini splits are variable speed, so the issue of over sizing might not be so critical. In that case I'd go for 12,000 btu.

I still think the installation labor quote was excessive.

I am enjoying one right now, and have been monitoring its operation. :)

The indoor air handler fan, the compressor, and the outdoor fan all have their speed varied with the load. It is very noticeable. I can just raise or lower the temperature setting to see the unit ramping up/down as it needs.

Right now, the lowest temperature of the day at 5AM before sunrise is still about 90F and above the house interior temperature. This means the unit can never be off, and indeed runs 24 hrs a day, albeit at a very low speed in the morning.

I have observed the power drawn of this 18,000 BTU/hr unit being the max at 1.4 kW in midday to 300W in the morning. No "bang-bang control". It's just beautiful.

When it gets cooler in a couple of months, I expect to see the outdoor fan and compressor completely stop in the morning, while the indoor fan runs at a very low speed to circulate the air.

This unit will not switch itself between Heat and Cool modes. I don't think that is desirable anyway.

PS. Because I did the installation myself and did not ask for any quote, I do not know what the normal charge is. In my case, it involves quite a bit of work to run the 33-ft refrigerant lines through the attic.
 
Last edited:
We are in southeastern Florida, where it can get aaaall the way down into the 50's in midwinter. I don't think we need to worry overmuch about heating.

Yes, I agree, if the compressor itself is variable speed. In that case, a large unit would be fine (it would cool the space more quickly when you started using the FROG and the set point was well below the temp in the room). Also, if it is a heat pump it is possible that a larger capacity is driven by heating rather than cooling requirements.
 
I am enjoying one right now, and have been monitoring its operation. :)

....

PS. Because I did the installation myself and did not ask for any quote, I do not know what the normal charge is. In my case, it involves quite a bit of work to run the 33-ft refrigerant lines through the attic.

Was running the drain line from the interior unit a problem? We had a mini-split with two head units installed and were able to locate them in spots that were acceptable aesthetically and that allowed a downward slope on the drains to piping runs that were also acceptable. I would consider installing a mini-split in a rental we have, but most of the ceilings are coved. The one decent location is in the house interior - and I don't think running a drain line up into the attic would be very functional!

We are pleased with the mini-splits - not a lot of AC weather in Oregon, but installing and removing the window air unit we had was an experience, and the noise level was way way beyond the mini split. Also like having a heat backup to the gas furnace (which was down when we had to come back up in January), fireplace, and portable electric heaters.
 
Yes, the condensation drain line would be a problem for some installations.

In my case, the indoor unit is mounted high in the vaulted entrance hall, next to the garage. The unit is mounted higher than 8 ft meaning above the garage ceiling, which allows a gently sloped PVC line to be installed in the garage attic to drain to the outside. The high location of the unit puts it out of view and makes it not obtrusive to the eye, particularly as it is fairly big for being a 18,000 BTU/hr unit.

For most installations, people will have the unit on an exterior wall, and the refrigerant lines and drain line simply go through the wall to reach the exterior where the compressor is located. That will make things very simple.
 
Last edited:
...

I have observed the power drawn of this 18,000 BTU/hr unit being the max at 1.4 kW in midday to 300W in the morning. No "bang-bang control". It's just beautiful.

When it gets cooler in a couple of months, I expect to see the outdoor fan and compressor completely stop in the morning, while the indoor fan runs at a very low speed to circulate the air. ...


So almost a 5:1 operating range - impressive. Do you know if the efficiency (COP) is similar across that range? I suppose it drops off at the low range, and that's why they switch to on/off control.

Oh, for those unfamiliar with the term, "bang-bang" is a control systems term for ON-OFF control, like you find in a typical single stage furnace/AC, a toaster, water heater, etc. Any system that is truly ON-OFF rather than varying the level, like you do with the gas pedal on a car.

-ERD50
 
Similarly to fuel efficiency of a car, it is reasonable to expect that COP of a variable-speed compressor will peak at an intermediate speed, then drops off at a low speed. The manufacturer certainly does not want to run the compressor below a certain minimum speed, similarly to having a car crawling along at idle speed will not get you very good mpg.

COP of an AC will also rise when the outdoor temperature drops. It is not just the lower speed of the compressor that results in the low power consumption in the morning. The refrigerant can liquefy at a lower pressure when the temperature at the condenser drops, and the reduced head pressure presented to the compressor will result in a lower electrical load for the same speed.

By the way, I did a quick look into how EER and SEER must be measured by manufacturers, so that everyone plays by the same rule.

In the old days, EER is measured at indoor temperature of 80F and outdoor temperature of 95F. For a single speed motor, that is it.

For SEER, the EER is measured at 8 different outdoor temperatures, and the values are combined in a weighted average, hence the name "Seasonal EER" to account for the fact that it is not always that hot.

For dual-capacity ACs, the tests are specified to allow for the automatic switching of the unit to the lower speed when the conditions are favorable for the latter. For variable-speed units, the tests are even more involved.

PS. This morning at 7AM, I saw the mini-split running at 700W. The outdoor was around 90F. The time I saw the low 300W power drawn was more than a month ago, when I first installed the unit. It was a lot cooler in the morning then.
 
Last edited:
I can tell that I'm not in the same league as you all! I'd probably just buy a window air conditioner and leave it at that. :ROFLMAO:

I admit that the rest of my house does have central AC. But this is just one room that isn't intended to be used a whole lot from what I am reading between the lines.
:greetings10: Not only the least expense upfront but also when repair is needed you can buy another for the price of a service call. The smallest units should do the job on such a small space and cost around $200 for a better brand.:D
 
Since I haven't seen this mentioned, here is one other thing to keep in mind. If you go the route of closing off the existing supply and return ducts, you will want to make sure that the existing AC will still operate correctly. When the indoor coil doesn't have enough air moving over it, it can ice over at which point bad things start happening. So if you have a contractor put in a mini split and close off the existing ducts, get it in writing from them that they'll guarantee there won't be issues with the existing coil icing over.

Ask me how I know, I have two townhomes built in 2015 that I'm in the middle of spending $2k each to add more ductwork as the original contractor didn't put enough in. Thus, both places start having issues on days when the tenants are running the AC quite a bit (but not trying to get to any kind of unusual temperate setting, just the hot days of summer)
 
:greetings10: Not only the least expense upfront but also when repair is needed you can buy another for the price of a service call. The smallest units should do the job on such a small space and cost around $200 for a better brand.:D



I would not mind a window AC for a small room. But when you have a large window that slides horizontally, it is not amenable to mount a window AC.

The OP does not even have any window. The wall is also masonry, else knocking out a rectangular hole in a stud wall would not be hard either.
 
I agree there is no easy way to get a window unit installed. Without a thermostat control for the room it will be warmer than the part of the house that is regulating the temp setting due to the higher heat gain in the room. Increasing the air exchange with the rest of the house could help but is probably in the cost range of the mini split system already mentioned.
 
Definitely will bring it up, and if they claim "no problem," ask for it in writing.

Now, would there be any issues using the mini-split with the ducts left open?

Since I haven't seen this mentioned, here is one other thing to keep in mind. If you go the route of closing off the existing supply and return ducts, you will want to make sure that the existing AC will still operate correctly. When the indoor coil doesn't have enough air moving over it, it can ice over at which point bad things start happening. So if you have a contractor put in a mini split and close off the existing ducts, get it in writing from them that they'll guarantee there won't be issues with the existing coil icing over.

Ask me how I know, I have two townhomes built in 2015 that I'm in the middle of spending $2k each to add more ductwork as the original contractor didn't put enough in. Thus, both places start having issues on days when the tenants are running the AC quite a bit (but not trying to get to any kind of unusual temperate setting, just the hot days of summer)
 
Check out a split system. We have one in our office and it's great. It wasn't that expensive either.
 
Check out a split system. We have one in our office and it's great. It wasn't that expensive either.

The nomenclature is important. A "split system" is what most homes in the US have had for decades, and what is already in the home of the OP. A "mini-split" is newer to the US market, it normally has separate evaporator coils/fans/thermostats in each room where there is an evap coil/fan.
 
The mini-split is also called ductless.

In exchange for the ungainly exposed airhandler, the blower is more efficient because it does not have to push air through long and narrow ducts. There's also no heat gain or loss due to the ducts being in the attic with the old central system.

There are now airhandlers that are flush-mounted in the ceiling, and look just like a ceiling vent. These allow the temperature in each room to be set individually.
 
LG has a picture frame airhandler unit that hangs on the wall. Manufactures of the split systems are getting more creative and realize some people don't like the look of bread boxes hanging on the wall. Minisplit systems with the variable speed inverter technology are amazing.

 
Oh, my. That heat load calculator asks for a lot of info that we can't lay our hands on. Especially insulation - except for the attic, which has about 16-18" of loose insulation, there's no telling what's in the walls, floors, ceilings. Even the garage under the Frog is drywalled.

If you know the age of the home (look at your toilet lid!) you may be able to google building code for that era. Most homes would be built & insulated at that level. Building code = the worst home you can legally build :D
 
Thank you for letting me know the units do not have to be ugly. I'm sure there's a beauty premium, though.

The 2 contractors I've interviewed, pushed Haier pretty hard. Something felt odd about this, as I've never heard Haier called a great quality brand. I figure Haier must be offering them incentives (maybe to overcome tariffs).
I've called a halt to the mini-split project until we can look into everything you all have told me about.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom