HyperLoop design coming

[Chuckanut]

Apparently Elon Musk is going to publicize the alpha design for his hyperloop transportation system in August. The article I read indicated he is looking for partners who like innovative design, done quickly and 'without a lot of money spent on BS.'

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_te...look_like.html

[Walt34]

Quote:

Oh, and this 800-mph system would be self-powered, immune to weather, and would never crash.

Yeah, right. If something can go wrong it will. And at 800-mph the crash will be spectacular.

[Chuckanut]

May I ask one of the administrators to correct the title of this thread to HyperLoop? thanks.

[ERD50]

I read that he won't be as involved with this as his other projects. I am interested in seeing any details, supposedly this is an existing concept - can Elon help bring it to life?

-ERD50

[Chuckanut]

Here is one person's idea of what the hyperloop design might be like. Nothing official, just somebody's best guess.

Google Image Result for http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/future_tense/2013/07/15/elon_musk_hyperloop_plans_here_s_what_it_might_loo k_like/hyperloop_guess.gif.CROP.article568-large.gif

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 I read that he won't be as involved with this as his other projects. I am interested in seeing any details, supposedly this is an existing concept - can Elon help bring it to life? -ERD50

Yes it appears that even Ironman has limits as to how many balls he can juggle.

He also is suppose to take the family on cross country drive in the Tesla. Does anybody else think taking 5 boys by yourself on X cross trip is more terrifying than going to Mars. .

Oh and ERD I'm sure this tweet from a Elon couple of days ago will get your interest.

Quote:

Am seeing many poorly argued attacks on "true" CO2 impact of electric cars. Will rewrite attacks 4 max strength & try my best to rebut.

I sure hope there are teenager in this country who admire this guy as much as us middle age techies. Definitely not ER material though.

[samclem]

I'm not seeing how it will be "1/10th the cost of a high speed rail line". Unless he's got some way to drasticallly cut the cost of obtaining right-of-way and to do the construction (build the tube in a factory and truck to the site?).

An intriguing concept, but not revolutionary unless he can significantly reduce the costs of getting it in place. And then find the right spot: Where a lot of people need to get from one place to another in a hurry--and don't need a car when they get where they are going.

Any physiological/marketing issues with the high magnetic flux to which passengers would be exposed? Lots of folks still are afraid of living near power lines, this would be a LOT more electromagnetic exposure than that.

"Remove ferrous jewelry, belt buckles, and hair accessories before boarding the MuskMotive. Metal strollers, wheelchairs, canes, and carts can injure other passengers as these items rapidly accelerate through the passenger compartment and are not permitted on the MuskMotive."

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp Yes it appears that even Ironman has limits as to how many balls he can juggle. He also is suppose to take the family on cross country drive in the Tesla. Does anybody else think taking 5 boys by yourself on X cross trip is more terrifying than going to Mars. .

Yep, that is way up there on the risk scale! My Dad took our family of three boys on a car trip out West, probably took a few years off his life!

He should reconsider the XC trip, and focus on HyperLoop

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Oh and ERD I'm sure this tweet from a Elon couple of days ago will get your interest. Quote: Am seeing many poorly argued attacks on "true" CO2 impact of electric cars. Will rewrite attacks 4 max strength & try my best to rebut. I sure hope there are teenager in this country who admire this guy as much as us middle age techies. Definitely not ER material though.

Well, I have a lot of respect for Elon, he's a brilliant and fascinating guy that can convert that brilliance into action, but he clearly is twisting the truth with some of his numbers on emissions (and hey, CO2 is only one of them - and for all we know, maybe the least important one). But that is part of his brilliance, no?

So I'll be interested to see what he has to say. But who are people going to listen to, a multi-millionaire, multi-entrepreneur, or some anonymous guy on a forum, with facts and figures to back him up? My bet's on the rich guy. Whoever said "the truth will out" was living in fantasy land.

But just now I re-read his tweet - well, there are some poorly argued attacks on "true" CO2 impact of electric cars. So he can de-bunk those. But can he debunk mine?


-ERD50

[Chuckanut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 . But who are people going to listen to, a multi-millionaire, multi-entrepreneur, or some anonymous guy on a forum, with facts and figures to back him up? My bet's on the rich guy. Whoever said "the truth will out" was living in fantasy land. -ERD50

As Tevya said in 'Fiddler On The Roof', "It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong because when you're rich they think you really know."

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Well, I have a lot of respect for Elon, he's a brilliant and fascinating guy that can convert that brilliance into action, but he clearly is twisting the truth with some of his numbers on emissions (and hey, CO2 is only one of them - and for all we know, maybe the least important one). But that is part of his brilliance, no? So I'll be interested to see what he has to say. But who are people going to listen to, a multi-millionaire, multi-entrepreneur, or some anonymous guy on a forum, with facts and figures to back him up? My bet's on the rich guy. Whoever said "the truth will out" was living in fantasy land. But just now I re-read his tweet - well, there are some poorly argued attacks on "true" CO2 impact of electric cars. So he can de-bunk those. But can he debunk mine? -ERD50

I am hoping that he does something like the Union of Concerned scientist report or Scientific America. I'll be very disappointed and frankly surprised if it is like the DOE's CAFE standards or the EPA MPGe BS. Spin from a CEO is one thing, lying from the government another. I'll make sure and tweet a link to your response.. Who knows he may read it.

[clifp]

I found a really cool fairly recent interview with Elon, where he talks a lot about Space X and modest amount of Tesla, and along with starting companies.

The cool thing about the interview is it done by Salman Khan, founder of the Khan Academy, another Silicon Valley revolutionary. "a free world-class education for anyone anywhere" is not quite as lofty as making the human race a multi planetary species, but still ambitious. Salman turns out to be a good interviewer.

One thing is abundantly clear to me after listening to Elon is that California would be crazy to build the 100 billion high speed rail.

[CCdaCE]

I thought this was a better graphic, from wikiMedia.



-CC

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp I found a really cool fairly recent interview with Elon, where he talks a lot about Space X and modest amount of Tesla, and along with starting companies. The cool thing about the interview is it done by Salman Khan, founder of the Khan Academy, another Silicon Valley revolutionary. ... One thing is abundantly clear to me after listening to Elon is that California would be crazy to build the 100 billion high speed rail.

Thanks, interesting, though I did multi-task through much of it. For others, just a hint of hyperloop talk, mostly at ~ 44:00.

At ~ 33:00 he says he predicts that EVs will make up 50% of new car sales in 14 years. I can't see that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem I'm not seeing how it will be "1/10th the cost of a high speed rail line". Unless he's got some way to drasticallly cut the cost of obtaining right-of-way and to do the construction (build the tube in a factory and truck to the site?). ...

Hyperloop may be mostly hype, I dunno. But looking at this:

Why ET3? | Evacuated Tube Transport Technologies

I can see where right-of-way would be drastically reduced. Since I've lived in/around the area known as the "Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler;" (Chicago - BY CARL SANDBURG), you see all the conflicts and safety issues with tracks crossing roads. Dangerous, costly, and slows everybody down. Freight has picked up on some local runs, and we routinely are stopping for these 200 car freights going through town. It's a real issue for police, ambulance and fire with limited places to cross to get to an emergency on the opposite side of the tracks.

All that gets multiplied with high speed rail. It presents an opportunity, but that doesn't mean this is the solution, and I have no real info on the magnitude of those costs. I'm curious to see how this develops. I do recall hearing ideas for this kind of system a few hundred feet below the ocean surface.

-ERD50

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Hyperloop may be mostly hype, I dunno. But looking at this: Why ET3? | Evacuated Tube Transport Technologies

Yes, getting everything above grade level does reduce the right-of-way costs and delays (both construction and in-use).
It is interesting to compare the evacuated tube idea with the "800 mph internal airflow" conjecture for the Musk idea.
-- Which would be more energy efficient? It costs energy to evacuate the tube, but then you get to run at very low friction. OTOH, pushing the air at 800 mph costs a lot of energy (air friction with the walls of the pipe).
-- Safety. A break in the evacuated tube line (fallen span, etc) causes all vehicles to rapidly but safely decelerate. A break in the 800 MPH windtunnel might still push a lot of cars out into abyss--brakes would be more important.
-- The evacuated tube proposal envisions small cars (up to 6 people) and customized starting/ending points. This is very appealing to me--lots better than big train cars that pick folks up from a central spot (at fixed times) and then dump them off at another big station. The waiting-to-change-transport-modes inefficiency is something we should seek to avoid. Regardless whether we use evacuated tubes or 800 MPH breeze to move the cars long distance, it would be a big bonus if you could get close to your ultimate destination. Maybe a small car that transitions from the high-speed tube (long distance) to a slower-speed (30-50 MPH?) elevated conventional light-rail system for the branch runs out to the suburbs and every few blocks within the city.

[Chuckanut]

Here's it is:

Hyperloop | Blog | Tesla Motors

At the bottom of this page is a link to a PDF with the alpha design.

I have no idea if this device or anything similar to it will ever be built and used successfully. But, I'm glad we are seeing some creative thinking. As TR said:

Quote:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

[clifp]

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Originally Posted by Chuckanut Here's it is: Hyperloop | Blog | Tesla Motors At the bottom of this page is a link to a PDF with the alpha design. I have no idea if this device or anything similar to it will ever be built and used successfully. But, I'm glad we are seeing some creative thinking. As TR said:

I read the summary and skimmed some of the 50 pages technical specification. Clearly some people payed attention in physics class.

How does somebody have time to run two major corporations, be the board chairman for a third and then work on this as a side project.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp I read the summary and skimmed some of the 50 pages technical specification. Clearly some people payed attention in physics class. How does somebody have time to run two major corporations, be the board chairman for a third and then work on this as a side project.

I'm only on page 12, but I'm reading every word.

Geek Heaven!

Comments so far - It doesn't seem like a small prototype system is likely, I think it needs to be big to prove the concept, and that will be tough to sell in one giant leap.

I would hope they would put in three tubes, not two. One would be available as a 'spare' for maintenance. Chicago is going through this with one of the El lines, it needs to be shut down for something like 3 months for long over-due upgrades.

Maybe they cover this, but at 30 seconds apart, how quickly can one slow down to avoid a collision with another (which obviously can't stop in zero seconds from those speeds).

And he's probably using the MJ numbers for the Tesla from the battery, rather then the MJ generated numbers, but I'll check that later

What, you don't recall the Kantrowitz Limit from class? Me neither.

-ERD50

[travelover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp ................. How does somebody have time to run two major corporations, be the board chairman for a third and then work on this as a side project.

Well for starters, he doesn't post here.

[ERD50]

OK read it all (the last section was just maps of proposed routes, skimmed). Fascinating, but I can't imagine going on with this until some smaller test systems were put in place.

There must be some areas, maybe 50-100 miles apart, that need fast, constant freight transport? A smaller tube to handle mail, small packages? Get some experience with freight - no humans involved, no 0.5g limits. You have to crawl before you can walk. Space flight was payload, monkeys, and dogs before humans.

Imagine a network of small diameter tubes along the rapid transit lines and major expressways in Chicago or other major city. So much mail and small packages could be handled and removed from the roads. Would still need pressurized cabins, or all the bubble-pack would pop!

I just can't imagine human transport as the very first step, with so much new territory involved.

But it is fascinating how much modeling can be done by computer these days. You can 'virtually' build a system with no physical construction at all.


-ERD50

[MooreBonds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 There must be some areas, maybe 50-100 miles apart, that need fast, constant freight transport? A smaller tube to handle mail, small packages? Get some experience with freight - no humans involved, no 0.5g limits. You have to crawl before you can walk. Space flight was payload, monkeys, and dogs before humans.

Just as Musk concedes that his concept is useless for trans-continental service (because supersonic flights are greatly more efficient, and allow flexibility to ANY city), freight may not work that well with the tube concept.

The biggest issues I would see are the loads and sizes, and what your current competition would charge. The tube capsule must be a certain size/shape, which would limit some palletized shipments. So then as a tube capsule transporter, you're going after a somewhat smaller market by weight and size, even after you're already at a price disadvantage compared to traditional trucking (and that doesn't even get into the comparison with railroad's even greater cost advantages).

Truckers are paid, what, maybe $.60+/mile as owner/operators, to transport items? Then tack on maybe $.20/mile for the company's profit. Round up to a simple $1/mile for simplicity of calculations.

Using St. Louis to Chicago (since I'm familiar with that distance ), it's about 300 miles. So for $300, you could haul a truckload of stuff (assuming no super heavy weights), in well under 1 day's time. Compare that with EM's estimate of, what, maybe $80 per person for a transit ticket from LA to San Francisco?

And on top of it - you STILL have to pay a local trucking company to handle the freight at the tube station, and make your local delivery. Not to mention that many freight loads are picked up at the origin location as well! Kind of like asking why a supersonic plane traveling at Mach 10 from London to Los Angeles can't be cost competitive when you want to end your trip in Seattle (because you still have to pay a local airline to fly you from Los Angeles to Seattle). So you still have the expense of local freight from source to the tube terminal, and then again from the tube terminal to the destination.

Sure, the tubes would be MUCH faster - but how quickly would that tube capsule of freight be processed and delivered? Would still take a truck 1/2 a day to make the rounds to deliver, so maybe you get it 1 day faster compared to traditional trucking to a terminal, and then local delivery the next day.

With margins under constant pressure, paying that much more for just 1 day's quicker service isn't worth it in most industries. And that's ignoring the massive price competitiveness that trucking has compared to the tubes on a $/lb basis, or $/cubic ft (whatever metric you want to use), even without the local freight handling in the source/destination cities.