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Papi · 05-01-2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillion

911 was a major event in US History, America had never been attacked on this scale.

Hi Max,

Yes, 9/11 was very major event in the US. But we had in the past been attacked on nearly the same scale: Pearl Harbor. Not quite as many casualties as 9/11 but almost disastrous for the US at the time.

eridanus · 05-01-2006, 08:29 PM

When legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Maximillion · 05-01-2006, 09:21 PM

Papi, great picture.

Papi · 05-01-2006, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillion

Papi, great picture.

Nice Yorkie. My mom had one for years. Greatest guard dog on this planet!!

REWahoo · 05-01-2006, 09:43 PM

Like many of you I have no desire to see this movie. As far as I am concerned the words of the movie critic who said, "United 93 is a great movie, and I hated every minute of it" says it all.

Ed_The_Gypsy · 05-01-2006, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Like many of you I have no desire to see this movie. As far as I am concerned the words of the movie critic who said, "United 93 is a great movie, and I hated every minute of it" says it all.

Exactomento, mon ami.

lazygood4nothinbum · 05-02-2006, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy

The damned thing hit the ground straight down into a swamp at unbelievably high speed....Have you have seen steel automobiles that were reduced to crushed beer cans at 1/20 the velocity? In 1968 or so, I saw an XK-E that was crushed to the size of a Fiat

just wondering if the swamp confusion might be valujet 1996 crash into the everglades just west of here. 110 people died. no bodies recovered, only some parts. we were on my roof watching the air part of the air & sea show. i took a break to head to the store when i heard of the crash on the radio. now it comes to mind each year when we watch www.airseashow.com

ps. fun cars & still gorgeous if you ever get to see one on the road but those jags never did do very well in any crash. my brother was supposed to inherit my uncle's xke until my uncle crashed it a few years before he died. i think maybe he was steering with his feet again. my uncle was very fun but also a little nutz.

azanon · 05-02-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Azanon,

What is the reason for your question? I don't see it keeping with the context of what has been discussed in the thread. The law of averages says some people on the forum lost close friends or relatives on 9/11, and I would hope we could avoid getting into gory details that would cause anyone here any more pain than they've already suffered.

Please quit overreacting and give me the benefit of the doubt. I was referring to the possible conspiracy.

azanon · 05-02-2006, 06:53 AM

Quote:

The damned thing hit the ground straight down into a swamp at unbelievably high speed.* Have you have seen steel automobiles that were reduced to crushed beer cans at 1/20 the velocity?* In 1968 or so, I saw an XK-E that was crushed to the size of a Fiat 600 that was hit a caddy head-on at only highway speeds, that was placed with a warning sign on a flat-bed trailer in front of HQ company at a place we both know well .*

Flight 93 was a big aluminum can that impacted the ground at well above the speed of sound.* You wanted skid marks

* On what, the clouds

* Even modest values of MV^2 are not kind to the works of man.* Perhaps you should have stayed awake in Vehicles Lab?

1.* We dont know it hit straight into the ground.* 2.* Crushed or not, where's the entire wreckage and blood?* Where's the plane wreckage at the pentagon too, for that matter, including the titanium engines (that wouldnt have melted).* * 3.* Yeah i want skid marks, cause all other plane crashes have them for 100s of feet long.* 4. WTH is a vehicle lab?** 5.* The site in PA looked like a dry field to me, not a swamp.

Sorry, but i'm just one of those people that doesnt necessarily believe everything i'm told without evidence. It was at a rather young age that i discovered that sometimes people lie.

lets-retire · 05-02-2006, 09:04 AM

razztazz-- The learning about the law part comes in when the situation isn't cut and dry. Most situations aren't that's why it is normally in ones best interest to cll the police. They are up to date on use of force and criminal laws. Fro example in my state it is prima facia evidence of a burglary if somone tries to enter your house or curteldge serripticiuosly. Meaning if someone sneaks onto you patio and is attempting to open the window to your daughter's room that is prima facia evidence they are there to commit a burglary. It also stipulates that legally the maximum use of force allowed is deadly force. So just going on that when the daughter's boyfriend it attempting to talk to the daughter at 9 pm he can be shot. BUT that will land you in jail and in a civil lawsuit. There are other steps that must be met prior to shooting the daughter's boyfriend. There are few areas in the law that are black and white, most of it is an ugly shade of gray.

As far as finding people peices or parts of an airplane. I had a friend who did crash recoveries for the Air Force. He was saying they had to go out and recover the peices of an F-16 crash. For some reason the pilot didn't eject and essentially went down very hard, but sub-maximum speed. He was saying that out of a 200 lbs man they found 120 pound of him, and none of the pieces were larger than about four inches. With the relatively small debris field in PA it would seem the plane hit almost vertical and, to me, it would be surprising to find people or thier parts.

This is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93

According to eyewitness statements, the plane was upside down and swaying when it crashed nose-first into a field. It landed at an estimated speed of 580 miles (933 kilometers) per hour and left a crater about 115 feet (35 meters) deep. All 44 people (including the hijackers) on board were killed.

SteveR · 05-02-2006, 01:49 PM

You engineer-types out there can do the math. Figure the amount of force exerted when a 200,000 pound hollow object strikes the earth at 600 mph at a steep angle of impact (near 90 degrees). Since they found the black boxes some 25 feet in the ground that should give you an idea of the impact to compress a plane that is around 170 feet long with the tail section area (black box location) 25 into the ground.

I used to cut car accident victims out of car wrecks and like one poster noted, whan a car hits a concret wall head on at 100 mph...there is not much left you can recognize. That is a very very small fraction of the force experienced by an aircraft hitting the ground at 600 + mph. It would be very easy for me to see how there would be very little left of anyone on board. Human bodies just do not hold up well to high impact collisions with immovable objects. I have picked enough body parts off the highway, on guard rails, off tree trucks and off the back of Semi-trailers to have a small appreciation for what happens in this kind of crash. Add fire (over 10,000 gallons of fuel) and whatever was left was incinerated.

Just my two cents.

Martha · 05-02-2006, 01:56 PM

This thread is giving me an anxiety attack. Shouldn't have read it.

cube_rat · 05-02-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha

This thread is giving me an anxiety attack.* Shouldn't have read it.*

Yeah, me too. I need a xanax.

I work for a fortune 500 company. We lost two people in each of the World Trade Center Towers . One employee in each plane. One was with his partner and their 4 year old adopted son. The other was a 20 year old P/T college student who's plane crashed into the second tower. These two employees did not know each other, yet their worlds crossed paths on the same day in the same event. How weird is that??

Okay, now I'm depressed :P

samclem · 05-02-2006, 03:05 PM

Azanon,
You have set a new low. Amazing.

thefed · 05-02-2006, 05:49 PM

give Azanon a break....

I dont necessarily believe one way or another, but I THINK there's a possibilty we (the US) shot it down. JMHO

REWahoo · 05-02-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefed

I dont necessarily believe one way or another, but I THINK there's a possibilty we (the US) shot it down. JMHO

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, I spent a number of years flying the friendly skies on the taxpayers nickel and a lot of people would have known about a weapons release had we fired on flight 93. Way too many people for this to be kept a secret for a few hours, much less several years.

samclem · 05-02-2006, 06:52 PM

Shot it down. Really. I hope you're kidding and I just missed the "

". Do you have any idea how many people would have to be involved in such a thing? Hundreds. And they are all keeping a secret. And airliner crew didn't get a radio call off (almost nothing carried by any fighter is big enough to instantly obliterate a large aircraft--not since we stopped carrying the "Genie" atomic-tipped crowd-pleasing air-to-air rocket). Maybe they did get a call off, but all the hundreds of other folks who would have heard such a call were also in on the conspiracy. Right. ("They were all out to get me . . . it started with the strawberries.")

This all ignores the "why" question, since those who believe/foster conspiracy theories always have a ready-made reason ("big oil", Rothchilds, trilateral commissions, war with Iraq, wag the dog, etc).

Just your statement that you "don't necessarily believe one way or the other" speaks volumes. I can't imagine any public event being more obvious or less subject to manipulation than the events we experienced on Sep 11 2001.

razztazz · 05-02-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, I spent a number of years flying the friendly skies on the taxpayers nickel and a lot of people would have known about a weapons release had we fired on flight 93. *Way too many people for this to be kept a secret for a few minutes, much less several years.

I'm not saying I belive in this particular conspiracy theory but I spent 20+ yrs on the controller side looking at the radar picture of the freindly skies, (and flying in it too) and I would disagree. Everything's really small up there. Nobody *has to see nuthin'. And you don't have to shoot it down with a big-assed missile from the ground that leave a big smoke trail that gets a lot of attention from local farmers.