Interested in some McCain background?

[Orchidflower]

Nords:

Oh lord...how I hate to admit this one, but I read Gene Simmons' autobiography:
Gene Simmons and his mother were displaced persons after WWII.
His father, a very good looking and nice man, was not much of a wage earner for the family. He was a laborer of some kind I think. But a very, very poor earner lacking initiation and drive.
Anyway, his mother divorced his father when Gene was young. All young Gene heard from the mother was what a nice guy and good looking his father was (too bad it skipped Gene), but he didn't know how to make money. This was her mantra to Gene. Over and over she repeated that when conversations turned to Gene's father. No wonder Gene thinks that to earn is place in his mother's heart that he HAS to make money in order to win her approval!!! And, by the way, he does worship is mother like many nice Jewish boys.
Yes, I agree, now it is his ego that drives him. But it started with Mama beating the message in his head.
(Now I am going to slink in a corner and curl in a fetal position for admitting I even read that book....)
P.S. I read all Donald Trump's books when I can, too. Amazingly, he makes alot of sense to me. Wonder what that says about my logic...ha!

 

[Nords]

(Now I am going to slink in a corner and curl in a fetal position for admitting I even read that book....)

Hey, I read it too, and it's one of the best rock biographies I've ever read.

It's touching learning about his mother helping him adjust the codpiece on his stage costume. Or the part where she almost beat a neighbor to death.

But reluctantly returning to topic, John McCain doesn't have a lot to say about his mother's influence on his life!

 

[Orchidflower]

Gene's mother did have some big backbone on her. Lord...what will MY son say about me? (Please don't let him become famous and start telling his "stories" about me...because he has more than one.)
Interesting that McCain has doesn't say much about his mother.
I can tell you from working with the late Senator Everett Dirksen (and being the one he dictated his autobiography to, which Mrs. D make into "Me and Mr. Marigold") that he WORSHIPED his mother. When he spoke of her it was like he was transfixed into another planet much like Gene Simmon's is told of doing. Dirksen's father was the town drunk, I think; mother raised 2 boys and one set of twins (Everett was a twin) by herself. Pretty poor, I gathered, from what he said.

 

[FinanceDude]

So, come election time when the real mud slinging starts, do you think McCain can successfully manage the 'issues' that are sure to resurface? I'm thinking of things like his wife admitting to stealing painkillers, his fame as a member of the Keating Five, maybe someone that he was in the POW camp with will surface for their 15 minutes of fame and attempted character assassination.

Note, I didn't say I cared about the things above, I'm just wondering how deep the mud is going to be this year. I'm guessing it won't be our most civil election...

Like the Swift Boat Vets for Truth did for Kerry

 

[Marquette]

Like the Swift Boat Vets for Truth did for Kerry

Well, it worked pretty well against him. Then again, you'd think the dems would have been able to launch an effective counterattack but.

 

[ChrisC]

Well, it worked pretty well against him. Then again, you'd think the dems would have been able to launch an effective counterattack but.

Some lies and factual distortions take on a life of their own and there's no way of counter-balancing the damage done. It's incredible how bad the distortions can become. When Rep. John Murtha started questioning the Administration's Iraqi military strategy, all of a sudden Murtha's military service record and medals became questioned too. And when McCain ran against Bush in the critical 2000 primary in South Carolina, the rumors started circulating in South Carolina that McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock -- ironic, no doubt, as South Carolina Senator Strom Thurmond did actually father a black child out of wedlock, a fact that became well-known in 2003 after his death.

There's a lot of swift-boating that will likely occur in this race.

 

[Milton]

I found this interesting mainly because I didn't know McCain graduated from the Naval Academy 394 out of 399.

Actually, it says that he graduated 894 out of a class of 899.

I was amused to hear the following Freudian slip as a McCain supporter was recently interviewed on the radio:

I think John McCain should be president because he's a veteran. And I'm a veteran!

I support his views on Vietnam. I mean, Iraq. I think that we should stay there until we've finished the job.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

[Orchidflower]

What's with America? George W. Bush was a C student, and now McCain graduating at the bottom of his class. Can't we do a tad better than that, folks?

I hate to admit how out of it politically I have been for the past 30 years. I was too busy doing silly things like running a business and raising a son; so, I wasn't sure what the Keating 5 was until I just looked it up. My, my....how politics hasn't changed at all! Same ole crap, different year.

 

[ChrisC]

What's with America? George W. Bush was a C student, and now McCain graduating at the bottom of his class. Can't we do a tad better than that, folks?

Well, it didn't work out for us when we elected a nuclear engineer, right?

 

[Milton]

What's with America? George W. Bush was a C student, and now McCain graduating at the bottom of his class. Can't we do a tad better than that, folks?

And there are others. E.g., Nixon and Reagan graduated from respectively Whittier College and Eureka College.

The Democrats have a better record, but how to explain Johnson's alma mater (Southwest Texas State Teachers' College)?!

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Jimmy Carter is probably damn near a genius. That went well.

 

[clifp]

Harry Truman graduate from the prestigious college of.....




Hard Knocks.. didn't attend any college, didn't keep him from being a respectable presidnt.

 

[Nords]

What's with America? George W. Bush was a C student, and now McCain graduating at the bottom of his class. Can't we do a tad better than that, folks?

USNA's minimum grade point average is a 2.0, so John McCain was at least a "C" student. At that class rank his GPA was probably all the way up around 2.0005 or maybe even 2.001. He took a lot of engineering & naval science courses, too. I wonder what Bush studied?

But McCain made more musters than Bush, and he probably participated in way more extracurricular activities (authorized and otherwise) than Bush. Could probably drink him under the table, too. Typical buncha aviators.

Jimmy Carter is probably damn near a genius. That went well.

I think Gumby would agree with me that this is what you get for electing a nuclear submariner to commander-in-chief.

Depsite Carter's kinder gentler elder-statesman image, my FIL spent a lot of time on the CBS crew around the White House. He says that during the Carter presidency he was a worse SOB than Nixon and almost as bad as Johnson. But then Johnson was several standard deviations into a league of his own...

 

[Gumby]

While not an impossibility, it would be a rare nuclear submariner that I would recommend for the presidency. The atmosphere in which we lived was not conducive to developing the traits necessary for success at that level. For example, we would obsess over useless detail. We had masses of data and believed each point was equally important. We were also obsessed with control. In the nuclear navy, there are no "acts of God". We controlled, or at least thought we controlled each and every aspect of the reactor and the boat. If something bad happened, it must be traced back to a human failure somewhere. We also lived in a world where the epitome of success was "no discrepancies noted". That fixation led to a world where people "played for a tie". No one wanted to take a bold new step, because you might fail. By the same token, the intense focus on the negative -- finding faults and correcting them -- while good for running a nuclear reactor and a sub with nuclear missiles on board, does not typically make for good leaders, who must coach, cajole and inspire their followers, recognizing they are imperfect but telling them they are doing a good job and giving them hope that they can do a better job. In our technocratic little world, we mostly told people when they made mistakes and almost never praised them. Finally, we had the Platonic belief that people would do the right thing if only they knew what it was; that the only reason people did anything wrong was because they didn't know better. Naturally, this totally ignores the fact that people are irrational, lazy and self centered.

Those who lived through the Carter years will probably recognize these very traits in him.


But, to give some additional perspective, I can also say that the most effective lawyers I have known are not necessarily the smartest lawyers I have known. In fact, I have known some very intelligent lawyers who could not get out of their own way. I think the most effective presidents are good leaders. While there is a certain minimum intelligence required (which I think GWB lacks), the ability to set the tone and inspire your followers to do great things is far more important than sheer brainpower.

 

[clifp]

USNA's minimum grade point average is a 2.0, so John McCain was at least a "C" student. At that class rank his GPA was probably all the way up around 2.0005 or maybe even 2.001. He took a lot of engineering & naval science courses, too. I wonder what Bush studied?
...

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Annapolis class ranks is function of GPA and demerits. I believe McCain did respectably in academics but darn near lead the class in demerits.

 

[Nords]

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Annapolis class ranks is function of GPA and demerits. I believe McCain did respectably in academics but darn near lead the class in demerits.

No, you're right. But even though he managed to rack up some legendary liberty runs, academics counts for the majority of the class standing today and perhaps was the same system waaaaay back then.

If he'd been an "A" or "B" student his conduct would maybe have dragged him down to the bottom half or even bottom third, but the fact that he ended up that low gives an indication that his GPA wasn't so good either.

I wonder if a FOIA request can get his transcript exhumed.

 

[ladelfina]

Good luck. There's already a tremendous backlog, and Bush has been playing new games with FOIA:

[1/31/08] This week, funds for the Office of Government Information Services, which handles FOIA requests, were transferred to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice is much more subject to influence by the White House—so much so that they may not even carry out the basic FOIA-related functions of the previous office. “By shifting the funding to the Justice Department, OMB would effectively eliminate the office, because it appears no similar operation would be created there,” according to an aide to Sen. Pat Leahy (D-VT).

Think Again: Your Government: Access Denied

Even when documents were not withheld de jure, administration officials often withheld them de facto. When People for the American Way sought documents on prisoners’ cases being litigated in secret, the Justice Department required it to pay $373,000 in search fees before officials would even look. “It’s become much, much harder to get responses to FOIA requests, and it’s taking much, much longer,” David Schulz, the attorney who helps the Associated Press with FOIA requests, explained to a reporter. “Agencies seem to view their role as coming up with techniques to keep information secret rather than the other way around. That’s completely contrary to the goal of the act.”

The Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy notes that “Over the past nine years, the number of FOIA requests processed has fallen 20 percent, the number of FOIA personnel is down 10 percent, the backlog [of pending requests] has tripled, and costs of handling a request are up 79 percent.”

Responding to pressure over the abuse of the FOIA Act, Bush issued an executive order in December 2005 mandating that agencies respond better to FOIA requests. But little progress was made. The Department of Justice issued a report attempting to show progress on the issue, but it approached farce, with statistics and graphics in the report contradicting the claims made on the previous page. The DOJ reported that more than half of the agencies successfully met their FOIA milestones, “and that 90 percent made meaningful progress.” But the report’s graphics show that only 11 of 25 agencies met all their milestones, and three agencies did not meet a single target.

There's something uniquely modern-Republican-math about those figures:
10% less staff; 20% fewer requests processed; 179% costs

Heckuvajob, Brownie!

 

[Milton]

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Annapolis class ranks are a function of GPA and demerits.

Yes, that's true. But then, the academies have always been more glorified boy scout camps than genuine universities. Remember Winston Churchill's comments regarding West Point (as quoted in Randolph S. Churchill, Winston S. Churchill, Volume One - Youth, page 270):

I am sure you will be horrified by some of the Regulations of the Military Academy. The cadets enter from 19-22 and stay four years. That means they are most of them 24 years of age. They are not allowed to smoke or have any money in their possession, nor are they given any leave except two months after the first two years. In fact they have far less liberty than any private school boys in our country.

I think such a state of things is positively disgraceful, and young men of 24 or 25 who would resign their personal liberty to such an extent can never make good citizens or fine soldiers. A child who rebels agains that sort of control should be whipped - so should a man who does not rebel.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hmmm, I hadnt seen anything that correlated poor grades in school with job performance.

In fact, I know lots of people who did poorly in academics become extremely successful people, and people who excelled in academics who couldnt do much after graduation.

 

[ChrisC]

Academic transcripts are not available to the public. The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act prevents this disclosure of records for most schools. And the Federal Privacy Act prevents disclosure for U.S. Service Academies.

John Kerry belatedly had his academic transcript released at Yale, which I believed indicated his academic achievement was slightly lower than George Bush, Jr, the so-called village idiot!

Once a student reaches 18, only the student has access to his academic records, and USNA is no exception to this rule: even the official sponsoring an appointment to a service academy does not have access to a the student's records.

BTW, class rank at USNA is heavily weighted toward academic achievement though there are professional/military and extra-curricular components to the class ranking. I don't know about the service academies not being genuine universities. I was quite impressed with the academic rigor at USNA. And I don't know of many other schools where an English major graduates with an engineering degree. A great account of life at these academies is Lipisky's Absolutely American: Fours Years at West Point, which follows the USMA Class of 2002 and was written by a Rolling Stone magazine reporter.

 

[Orchidflower]

Agree that leadership ability is so much more important in life than academic ability; but, let's admit it, comedians have had a field day with GWB's C average. Yes, of course, there is often an inverse relationship to how much education and how well one does in school to how well one does in the "real" world; hence, many high school dropouts make gobs of money while the class valedictorian doesn't.
McCain's low status in college due to his demerits despite decent academics somehow doesn't surprise me and seems pretty consistent with his personality now.
By the way, just before I went back to college, I worked for a guy who dated Linda Bird Johnson. He is mentioned, in fact, in Lady Bird's autobiography, so he was around their living quarters alot. Johnson, being the Southern gentleman he was (cough, cough), used to talk to HIM while he was on the toilet. The guy I worked for was a really WASPie, uptight lawyer, and was so freaked out about it that he still was in shock when I met him. The visuals alone were pretty funny to me and about the only enjoyment I had while working for him, too.

 

[FinanceDude]

Hmmm, I hadnt seen anything that correlated poor grades in school with job performance.

In fact, I know lots of people who did poorly in academics become extremely successful people

Might you be talking in the 3rd person here?

Some of the wealthiest folks I ever met had an 8th grade education.........

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I wouldnt be that subtle but I do fit the description.

Being able to memorize, theorize and get good test scores in a structured environment has little to do with leading, performing in a job, or being successful.

 

[Nords]

Yes, that's true. But then, the academies have always been more glorified boy scout camps than genuine universities. Remember Winston Churchill's comments regarding West Point (as quoted in Randolph S. Churchill, Winston S. Churchill, Volume One - Youth, page 270):

Aw, c'mon. This year's crop of Rhodes scholars (and other scholarship recipients) from service academies might be surprised to hear that they got their chops at a "glorified [-]boy[/-] person scout camp"-- even USAFA. Other "genuine universities" seemed pretty happy to accept the transfer transcripts from service academies, too.

A child who rebels agains that sort of control should be whipped - so should a man who does not rebel.

If there's one thing that I learned from USNA, it's how to most effectively break the rules.

 

[Milton]

No point in the two of us arguing about this unimportant issue, which in any case is largely subjective. Let's agree to disagree.