Is the American Dream still alive and well

[youbet]

I've found thru considerable analysis that a sweet spot exists in the low $60k range for a married couple. Heathcare, federal income taxes with SS income and you pay very low taxes. Now the next question is whether you can live on that amount or not. While I may not choose to live on that amount I'm grateful I have the option.

You might be confusing "what you can live on" and "what you pay taxes on."

A successful retirement planning couple may show $60k income, and thus receive the benefits you describe, but also have a nice pile of savings they can withdraw tax free for additional spending.

 

[rayinpenn]

The reason for my post..

The disenfranchised are the enemy of every society.. Tell someone there is no hope enough times and they just might consider giving socialism a try..

An old guy like me ... We still relish the concept of the opportunity to succeed...
1) I was not a driven guy
2) I had sooo little
3) all I knew/believed was education would change my lot in life..

Yeah i was as poor as a church mouse but I didn't know any better...
Most of all I wasn't angry- I just grateful for dinner any night.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum.

 

[foxfirev5]

You might be confusing "what you can live on" and "what you pay taxes on."

A successful retirement planning couple may show $60k income, and thus receive the benefits you describe, but also have a nice pile of savings they can withdraw tax free for additional spending.

Good point. No confusion here. Us old school people always had a big cash stash for capital expenditures and other major expenditures. My expense outlay evaluation only involves covering basic monthly/quarterly/semiannual outlays. In any event taxes play a significant role.

 

[HFWR]

On an individual basis, I'd say that achieving the American Dream is still quite possible. The difficulty lies with the significant portion of the population that might be less academically and/or entrepreneurially inclined. As the saying goes, half the people have IQs less than 100...

Okay, rash generalization, but the AD used to include reasonably stable jobs, with reasonably good wages, and likely a pension, for lots of folks with maybe a high school education and a decent work ethic. For most folks, the AD is a home, a riding mower, a big screen, and an above ground pool, not luxury autos, five-star dining, and exotic travel. The predominance of those jobs, as we've discussed here many times, was the result of a set of post-WWII conditions not like to repeat.

 

[Sunset]

I think a person of average intelligence with an excellent work ethic and a little good luck can do just fine in the current US environment. One drawback is with the loss of some of our heavy manufacturing base it can be more difficult for those individuals who long for the union factory job that parents or grandparents may have held. That said, education and retooling one's skill set is a major factor of how a person will do in achieving the American Dream.

As a teenager, I had a friend who quit high school and grabbed one of those Union Auto manufacturing jobs, he had lots of cash, and a nice car. While I walked to High School, then to University for 4 yrs so I could get a job that paid less than he got.

Perhaps those jobs, easily replaced by dumb robots were just an anomaly in history and people need to evolve.

 

[audreyh1]

I don't resonate with the 20th century concept of "the American Dream" because it kind of sounds like everyone wants the same thing, yet somehow different from people in the rest of the world? House, two cars, chicken in every pot, consuming focus, etc.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - now that American Dream I totally get!

 

[nun]

I've never understood "The American Dream"......it sounds like an advertising slogan......and I don't think the middle aged/old folks on a forum like this really have much chance of understanding the challenges that face the Millennial generation.

 

[robnplunder]

American dream is still reachable for most. But the days of owning a house & middle class life style with a single income working at a factory is not possible. Those days are long gone and forever. These days, it typically takes a couple to work full time at decent jobs to make it.

 

[Lucantes]

Hmmm... Let's ask a forum full of self-made multi-millionaires whether it's still possible to become a self-made multi-millionaire. Wonder what we'll find.

+1

 

[bUU]

It seems like every where I'm reading that the promise of hard work (and possibly working smart) will no longer lead you to success. I for one don't see it.. My my evidence may be anecdotal but it is what I've personally observed..

That's key: We tend to self-select our interactions with people who are so similar to us in that they benefit from the same privilege from which we benefit, and therefore glean similar advantages as we glean, and sidestep the same injustices we sidestep. It is only when we surround ourselves with those who are less fortunate than ourselves, connect with such folk in a deep manner, becoming invested in their challenges and triumphs and failures, that we have access to a clearer picture of the reality of how the American dream is being drawn further and further away from many people.

I think that it is difficult to impossible for younger people to have the slightest clue as to what we older folks went through way back when.

But we know, because it was us. If you think that those coming out of high school today have it easier than we did, then you must be closing in on 80 years old (i.e., a generation older than I). There is no question that things were once as hard as they are now. Western society, overall, has been on a remarkable trajectory of progress for about 350 years. Generation after generation things were getting better and better and better. Now that's been stopped, and sharply reversed. We've not only lost a generation or more of that progress, but if what you're saying is to be believed, then we've slid back a generation or more.

 

[Senator]

As a teenager, I had a friend who quit high school and grabbed one of those Union Auto manufacturing jobs, he had lots of cash, and a nice car. While I walked to High School, then to University for 4 yrs so I could get a job that paid less than he got.

Perhaps those jobs, easily replaced by dumb robots were just an anomaly in history and people need to evolve.

Or maybe it's the idea that going to High School, then to University for 4 yrs so you can get a (W2) job is the part that needs to evolve...

Entrepreneurs’ seem to be able to make it to a higher level of income faster. The world is headed that way. Bloggers, AirBNB, Uber, etc. all encourage that type of business model.

As you start a business, you understand the advantage of running it. There are many tax advantages of running a business.

The American dream is a diverse set of ideas, different for many. It is alive, and achievable, as much as ever.

Of course, if you do not ever think you will achieve it, you never will. You darn sure will not get it riding in the wagon expecting a handout, or waiting for it to come to you.

 

[bUU]

Or maybe it's the idea that going to High School, then to University for 4 yrs so you can get a (W2) job is the part that needs to evolve...

One big difference is that the cost of getting there has increased more than seven-fold. My niece will earn her degree along with so much debt, that, assuming she has a great career, she'll still be paying it off when she is older than I was when I bought my first home.

Entrepreneurs’ seem to be able to make it to a higher level of income faster.

Or crash and burn so that they don't factor into the entrepreneurs' statistics. It is important, with these things, to avoid metrics that suffer from Survivorship Bias.

The American dream is a diverse set of ideas, different for many.

While diverse Americans have a diverse set of ideas, "the American dream", itself, has the especial connotation of achieving the ability to pay one's own way and secure one's own future, while enjoying a family life instead of just being a slave to a job.

It is alive, and achievable, as much as ever.

No: Not as much as ever. As much as perhaps a generation and a half ago, but less achievable than it was more recently than that. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows a steady ever-increasing level in opportunity and success achieving the American dream, with regard to any normalized metrics.

Of course, if you do not ever think you will achieve it, you never will.

I think a lot of Americans have been lulled into a false sense of "it's all right" by such statements, statements that have often times been peddled by those who seek to obscure the hard, cold realities in the interest of defending the status quo. It has to be accompanied by the balancing statement: Even if you think you can achieve it, and put forth the work to do so, you still perhaps will not. It's a craps-shoot.

 

[Senator]

One big difference is that the cost of getting there has increased more than seven-fold. My niece will earn her degree along with so much debt, that, assuming she has a great career, she'll still be paying it off when she is older than I was when I bought my first home.

Or crash and burn so that they don't factor into the entrepreneurs' statistics. It is important, with these things, to avoid metrics that suffer from Survivorship Bias.

While diverse Americans have a diverse set of ideas, "the American dream", itself, has the especial connotation of achieving the ability to pay one's own way and secure one's own future, while enjoying a family life instead of just being a slave to a job.

No: Not as much as ever. As much as perhaps a generation and a half ago, but less achievable than it was more recently than that. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows a steady ever-increasing level in opportunity and success achieving the American dream, with regard to any normalized metrics.

I think a lot of Americans have been lulled into a false sense of "it's all right" by such statements, statements that have often times been peddled by those who seek to obscure the hard, cold realities in the interest of defending the status quo. It has to be accompanied by the balancing statement: Even if you think you can achieve it, and put forth the work to do so, you still perhaps will not. It's a craps-shoot.

You are right. For you, the american dream will never be achieved. You have far to many excuses why you, or your niece, can never achieve it.

 

[bUU]

That's a nonsensical evasion.

 

[Greencheese]

While I do believe many people make excuses for not succeeding don't discount the additional upfront costs newer generations typically have to pay. Higher college costs, less employer training, overall housing costs have increased, less good paying general labor jobs... It does add up for MANY people.

But most people my age who are saddled with debt are working hard to pay it off and be realistic about jobs. Not everyone is saying pro MLB or bust. Most people of any generation are hungry for success, the news just likes to point out failures more and more these days it seems.

 

[Senator]

While I do believe many people make excuses for not succeeding don't discount the additional upfront costs newer generations typically have to pay. Higher college costs, less employer training, overall housing costs have increased, less good paying general labor jobs... It does add up for MANY people.

The last I knew, you could analyze the cost of college, and the type of job/salary you can get, and make a decision accordingly. If you are the type that wants a art or history degree, be satisfied to be a starving artist or a restaurant server.

You can join the military to get free college. If you are opposed to the military, maybe you are opposed to making sacrifices too.

If you think family is more important than work, then be satisfied with family life and less money.

Far too many people look for handouts, and are afraid of work. They look for excuses why they have it so bad and then reflect why they cannot achieve as much as someone who did work.

I suggest to go to the local VA hospital and volunteer for a few days. Then, you will understand what sacrifices are, and know what it may take.

Most peoples problems can be solved by simply looking in the mirror...

I think the biggest issue may be that the people that have achieved the american dream, will have it taken away by the ones who do not want to put in the effort themselves.

 

[Dawg52]

It seems like every where I'm reading that the promise of hard work (and possibly working smart) will no longer lead you to success. I for one don't see it.. My my evidence may be anecdotal but it is what I've personally observed..
1) daughter killing it at state u get an offer for an exciting internship.
2) several Philadelphia community college students get full rides to u of penn.
3) the talented hard working people around me succeed..

It seems like there are a lot of buyers to the notion that times are very tuff...you oldsters had it easy..


Anyone care to comment..



Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum.

I paid tuition to my local 2 year community college and to my state University. Today the same community college offers a program where your tuition is free if you maintain a B average. We have seen in another thread that many are able to default on students government loans and the debt is wiped clean if your income falls below a certain level. Right or wrong that program is out there.

Anyone who thinks the American dream is gone, just read the Fuego thread.

 

[Car-Guy]

Education is important for most folks, dropping out of High School is dumb, but an incredible number of kids do it.

I would agree with that "however" there are many exceptions. I know a few guys who dropped out of my high school and admittedly I've lost track of most of them. (Just like I've lost track of most of those who graduated from my high school.) However there was one guy I knew who dropped out in his last year of HS and we have kept in touch for 45+ years since we shared the same hobby/interest in cars. He initially worked in a number of "odd jobs" and was "lucky" enough to learn a trade/skill while working at one of his jobs. That trade (or skill) helped him land a job at a fortune 10 company where he applied himself and did extremely well. He retired the same year I did from a management position and as a multi-millionaire.

Normally that fortune 10 company would not have hired (or even interviewed) him without a college degree (and certainly not without a HS diploma). But once he was in, he tells me he was treated like everyone else for advancements and he did very well.

I think he'd say he experienced the American dream and with limited formal education.

Not the path I'd recommend but it can and does happen.

 

[Senator]

I paid tuition to my local 2 year community college and to my state University. Today the same community college offers a program where your tuition is free if you maintain a B average. We have seen in another thread that many are able to default on students government loans and the debt is wiped clean if your income falls below a certain level. Right or wrong that program is out there.

Anyone who thinks the American dream is gone, just read the Fuego thread.

Not to mention that in today's environment, there are many more laws, and programs, to protect you.

There is the internet to be more productive. Accounting software and computers that are much easier than a legal pad. Smart phones to be able to access information and receive customer calls from anywhere in the world. GPS to be actually able to find a specific customers house. Satellite images to do planning and estimates from a distance. You can order equipment and tools from anywhere in the world and get them overnight. You can price shop in a few minutes. You can open up an internet business for pennies, and risk almost nothing.

In a way, it sort of like losing weight. There are a lot of excuses for not being able to do that too...

 

[Amethyst]

I don't think anyone's mentioned what I consider a significant factor in the belief that "it's harder for us younguns today": The younguns today use social media to reinforce each other's perceptions, in ways that weren't possible 20+ years ago.

Back then (and always) people surely got together and commiserated over how tough things were for them, but they rarely had thousands of other folks instantaneously liking/agreeing with what they said. It was harder to create a "meme" [e.g. "Old Economy Steve"] and have it go "viral" such that it became a part of everyone's consciousness.

Please note that I didn't say it was "impossible," just "harder." I well remember how certain anti-Vietnam-war "memes" (such as the photo of the little naked Vietnamese girl, her clothes burned off, running down the street) became burned in everyone's consciousness and helped to fuel the street protests. But the social media are immensely more powerful tools for any individual with an axe to grind, than the mainstream media were back then.

Amethyst

 

[Senator]

I don't think anyone's mentioned what I consider a significant factor in the belief that "it's harder for us younguns today": The younguns today use social media to reinforce each other's perceptions, in ways that weren't possible 20+ years ago.

Back then (and always) people surely got together and commiserated over how tough things were for them, but they rarely had thousands of other folks instantaneously liking/agreeing with what they said. It was harder to create a "meme" [e.g. "Old Economy Steve"] and have it go "viral" such that it became a part of everyone's consciousness.

Please note that I didn't say it was "impossible," just "harder." I well remember how certain anti-Vietnam-war "memes" (such as the photo of the little naked Vietnamese girl, her clothes burned off, running down the street) became burned in everyone's consciousness and helped to fuel the street protests. But the social media are immensely more powerful tools for any individual with an axe to grind, than the mainstream media were back then.

Amethyst

All true. I think it's even easier today, more than ever. For my above reasons, a person can be much more productive.

 

[marko]

You might be confusing "what you can live on" and "what you pay taxes on."

A successful retirement planning couple may show $60k income, and thus receive the benefits you describe, but also have a nice pile of savings they can withdraw tax free for additional spending.

As my (high paid) accountant always says: "The trick is to be one of us while, on paper, looking like one of them"

 

[bUU]

Most peoples problems can be solved by simply looking in the mirror...

While it is clear that some people's problems can be solved that way, there is no reason to believe it addresses the issue for "most people". That's a baseless assumption.

But the social media are immensely more powerful tools for any individual with an axe to grind, than the mainstream media were back then.

And some of the most effective uses for social media in recent years is the promulgation of baseless assumptions that seek to legitimize rationalizations and make default the derisive consideration of those less fortunate at achieving the American dream. As a matter of fact, the growth of media choice has strengthened both extremes and hollowed out the middle, according to Matt Levendusky, assistant professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania.

 

[rayinpenn]

One big difference is that the cost of getting there has increased more than seven-fold. My niece will earn her degree along with so much debt, that, assuming she has a great career, she'll still be paying it off when she is older than I was when I bought my first home.
.

Several younger colleagues with a couple of kids ...their plan
1) community college for 2 years - live at home
2) local state university junior and senior years - live at home
3) reliable older car think Toyota / part time work.

All in cost $25k -
Expected Debt at graduation...$0

I won't try to say Debt is always a decision but the amount of debt surely can be. I used the community college model above and graduated with $5k of debt in 1977. I lived at state university my junior and senior years. There was a lot of stress at home so it was easy to want yo get away. My starting salary was about $10k. I paid that debt off in ten years...

I've met interns at work that will graduate with $200 grand of debt ... Decision (arguably bad a bad one ) is a Villanova degree worth that much debt? This old geezer does not think so.

Yet a NYU MBA will earn on average $150k in their first year.

 

[ziggy29]

It's still there. The dynamics about how to maximize your chances to get there have changed, though.

As for the intergenerational squabbling... I think both the young'uns and the geezers are right... and underinformed as well. Neither side can relate to the types of struggles and sacrifices the other group made because they were different in many ways.

The young folks are mostly right that the days of getting a decent, perhaps union, job with good security, great benefits and a secure retirement out of high school are pretty much gone. They are correct that success today almsot certainly requires at least a four-year college degree, if not more. And they are right that today, college costs are ridiculous compared to what they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. But they are wrong in assuming it was easy, or didn't come with its own need for hard work and sacrifice. Or that there was a good chance that the older ones may have been taken and sent off to war.

The older folks are mostly right that it's still possible. And that today's society makes it easier to throw yourself a pity party rather than roll up your sleeves, work smarter/harder and make it -- thus reinforcing the "we are screwed" meme. But fewer and fewer jobs today are providing health insurance, let alone a pension. Not to mention the aspect of entitlement reforms that is sure to eventually come down hardest on younger workers, and the ballooning debt that will disproportionately crush younger dreams rather than older ones. And while there are certainly ways to avoid massive college costs, overall college costs in real terms are several times higher than they were in, say, the 1960s or 1970s. But using that as a crutch, as an excuse to not even try, is unacceptable.

Every generation has its defining challenges. They may be different, not necessarily much easier or much tougher to overcome, and our inability to relate to the realities (actual or perceived) of others spurs us on to try to compare who had it worse, as if we want to be martyrs. Seems silly to me.

The sooner we can get past this "who had it harder" generational warfare stuff, the better, IMO. It's less a matter of who had it better as it is that the challenges are simply a lot different, and different generations can't really relate to them (in many cases) with their own experiences and observations, making us sound like the Four Yorkshiremen. Too much of our media culture is designed to pit one half of the people against the other half, along social lines, political lines, economic lines, racial lines, gender lines, generational lines, even about favorite sports teams. Media know that controversy and treating things like an us-versus-them, zero-sum game is good for their ratings (just look at the toxic comment sections), and we need to be better and smarter than to keep falling for it and letting them keep pitting good, ordinary folks against each other. Mainstream media create these frictional sparks of divisiveness, and then social media pour gasoline on them.

"The death of the American Dream" is right up there with the "Death of Equities".