Ken Burns series "Vietnam" on PBS

[donheff]

Last night's installment was informative. I never realized that Nixon basically committed treason by striking a side deal with South Viet Nam's president Thuei to sit out the Paris peace talks in order for Nixon to gain political advantage before the 68 election.

I had heard years ago that Nixon interfered with the peace talks but I didn't realize that LBJ actually had CIA tapes of the conversations. What a despicable SOB Nixon was. If the information had come out at the time and tricky Dick lost would Humphrey have gotten us out quickly as promised? We will never know but, as things went, another 12,000+ US soldiers died before we finally left.

 

[samclem]

Last night's installment was informative. I never realized that Nixon basically committed treason by striking a side deal with South Viet Nam's president Thuei to sit out the Paris peace talks in order for Nixon to gain political advantage before the 68 election.

"Treason" is a very strong charge and is, IMO, inappropriate here. If taking domestic elections into account when conducting foreign policy is treasonous, then we have more current examples of executive "treason" than RMN.

 

[MichaelB]

Probably not a good idea to go down that road..

 

[Danmar]

We were in Viet Nam for a few days a couple of years ago. Loved it. Going back for a biking trip next May. I was quite surprised how the Vietnamese people have (apparently) moved on re the war. I mentioned this to an American friend and he said " ya, but they won". Makes it easier for them I guess.

 

[NW-Bound]

I read that they had a baby boom after the war, which was over 40 years ago. A majority of them never lived through the war, so there was nothing to remember.

 

[Sunset]

When we were in Europe in the Spring, I really enjoyed it. Didn't think I was so happy because we won.

However one of our tour guides did seem pretty resentful over the bombing of WWII and all the damage it caused. She was too young to have lived through it. So maybe it is easier for the winners.

 

[NW-Bound]

I have to admit I don't know much history about some of the people on this list. But after watching the Ken Burns series, one could say that LBJ bears more responsibility than Ho Chi Mihn for the 1.7 million deaths. History is complicated and it's easy to spin the 'facts'.

Has anybody seen anything out of the other side about the war, reflecting on what they did? Why did we have the wave of the boat people after the war? The North Vietnamese committed atrocities against the South Vietnamese too, and who is going to bring that up?

I have yet to see any episode of this documentary, because I do not currently have access to broadband Internet. It sounded like it has some different info from the old 1983 documentary that I watched.

A reflection on the past is good. It shows we have a conscience. More importantly, it shows we have freedom of speech. Some countries or cultures never admit that they did anything wrong whatsoever. To this day, the Japanese never talk about what they did in Nanking and in other Asian countries, but only about the A-bombs. Germany however did, and denounced the Nazi.

 

[Major Tom]

Here you go

1: Déjà Vu (1858-1961) | The Vietnam War | Explicit Language Version | PBS

Dagnabbit. PBS doesn't stream well on low bandwidth DSL connections like mine. Netflix streams very well on my relatively slow connection, so I guess I'll have to wait for it to become available that way.

 

[6miths]

Just starting to watch it. Seems well done so far.

 

[Major Tom]

Now, how do we get the Internet, Web access, computers and smartphones into the hands of the North Koreans?

I read an interesting suggestion recently. It may even have been in this forum so, if that's the case, apologies for repeating the point. How about dropping millions of smartphones into their country, and arranging for a satellite or two to provide wireless access - or planes flying overhead? A regular WiFi signal wouldn't be strong enough for area-wide coverage but perhaps we could either broadcast much stronger signals on those frequencies, or modify the phones for different frequencies.

We've been broadcasting into enemy territories on shortwave for decades, as well as flying planes overhead that broadcast radio and TV signals to citizens in those lands. Dropping phones and providing internet access is simply the modern version of those time-honored techniques. The population of the DPRK is ~25 million. 5 million phones @ $200 each = $1B. Then there's the cost of providing the internet signal. Sounds feasible.

 

[Breedlove]

Really enjoyed the episode last night on Vietnam War . Some of the things that my DW and I have seen on the special have really brought back memories . My brother was in the war . When he came back he destroyed anything that referenced him as ever being in the army. My father was a decorated WWII Vet . The fights that our family had were awful , I know now that it was more then Kent State that brought the war to our soil. My father had my brother put in jail for argueing and fighting against the war.
I remember Kent state like yesterday . I was going to a community college in central Ohio . A few days before Kent state there was a wildcat truckers strike RTE 70 through central Ohio was impassable . Truckers sat on top of their trucks with guns. I went on some backroads to avoid the interstate and seen, it seemed hundreds of Hells Angels going around the strike. Governor Rhodes called the National Guard out to clear the truckers , some had fathers that were striking . The guard moved out and immediately went to Kent State . Most of the guardsmen were tired and worn out from being involved in the trucker strike. And sadly the guardsmen were not liked at all by anyone.
We heard about KS on the TV and radio , everybody was just stunned . A boy I went to HS was in the Guard at KS and gave an account to our local newspaper . A week later he changed his story ...........
Some of the older guys to me told me that the Hells Angels knew that something was about to happen and this is why they left northern Ohio ...fact or fiction , one of the legends that live on .
Those were strange times , right in my backyard . Sorry if I said too much

 

[stepford]

Breedlove, would you be willing to share the before and after stories told by that one Kent State guardsman?

 

[Breedlove]

The story the guardsman told in the newspaper immediately after the shooting was that they were told to hold their ground and to not fire . He said he did not know they had live ammunition ........... One of the Guardsmen fired and hell broke loose . Actual words were "not one of the students fired. "
Four days later he said the guardsmen heard what sounded like a gun go off and they reacted . I don't want to give the Guardsman's name but this was his account in The Times Recorder . Zanesville Ohio.

As I said earlier Guardsmen were not liked as it was a way to avoid Vietnam and these guys had spent around a week trying to dislodge a teamsters strike in the area . They were scared and tired .

 

[neihn]

I have to admit I don't know much history about some of the people on this list. But after watching the Ken Burns series, one could say that LBJ bears more responsibility than Ho Chi Mihn for the 1.7 million deaths. History is complicated and it's easy to spin the 'facts'.

Ho Chi Minh was on that list for his land reform in 1950s that killed hundreds thousand of Vietnamese. Google Ho Chi Minh and land reform. He later put on a show crying and saying his subordinators did it wrong, yet no one was punished for that crime.

 

[Texas Proud]

I read an interesting suggestion recently. It may even have been in this forum so, if that's the case, apologies for repeating the point. How about dropping millions of smartphones into their country, and arranging for a satellite or two to provide wireless access - or planes flying overhead? A regular WiFi signal wouldn't be strong enough for area-wide coverage but perhaps we could either broadcast much stronger signals on those frequencies, or modify the phones for different frequencies.

We've been broadcasting into enemy territories on shortwave for decades, as well as flying planes overhead that broadcast radio and TV signals to citizens in those lands. Dropping phones and providing internet access is simply the modern version of those time-honored techniques. The population of the DPRK is ~25 million. 5 million phones @ $200 each = $1B. Then there's the cost of providing the internet signal. Sounds feasible.

I guess you do not have a devious mind...

You simply pass a law saying anybody caught with a phone will be killed... after killing a few thousand people will get rid of the phones...

 

[Breedlove]

To give responsibility for the war to any one person is being irresponsible . I was not old enough to get drafted and when I became 19 they started the lottery and I had a high number.

The responsibility of the war was like a world spinning out of control.
I could not blame any one person. I realize today that the biggest business in the world is weapons and the dealers of weapons never want to destroy their biggest customers , so these kind of things will happen again and again until people refuse to fight.

 

[Nemo2]

I guess you do not have a devious mind...

You simply pass a law saying anybody caught with a phone will be killed... after killing a few thousand people will get rid of the phones...

Plus, the population is so propagandized, and (understandably) paranoid, that they'd likely think the whole thing was an entrapment ploy by the regime anyway.

 

[NW-Bound]

Do people remember a scene in "Apocalyse Now", where Colonel Kurtz recalled the time he went into a hamlet to innoculate children, only to have the Communists coming back when he left, and hacking off the arms of the children? They were not allowed to accept anything from the enemy!

 

[tfudtuckerpucker]

Dagnabbit. PBS doesn't stream well on low bandwidth DSL connections like mine. Netflix streams very well on my relatively slow connection, so I guess I'll have to wait for it to become available that way.

It appears PBS does not want to make it available for free download, though Itunes has them now for $7 per episode.

I've watched all episodes so far, and it has provided some interesting historical context, though to me it seems to just drag on (kinda like the Vietnam war did). Even so, I don't think it's possible to get your arms around the war in a 10 hour documentary, though Ken Burns always does good work. Another interesting documentary I found is The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara, as he tells his side of the story.

 

[LOL!]

Has anybody seen anything out of the other side about the war, reflecting on what they did? Why did we have the wave of the boat people after the war? The North Vietnamese committed atrocities against the South Vietnamese too, and who is going to bring that up?

That has been brought out in full detail many many times in this documentary series.

 

[stepford]

Another interesting documentary I found is The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara, as he tells his side of the story.

I'm a big fan of this documentary and it made me reassess my opinion of McNamara somewhat. It's particularly interesting to watch this and then Errol Morris' pseudo-sequel "The Unknown Known" about the later Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Comparing the McNamara's candor and willingness to accept responsibility with Rumsfeld's approach is instructive to say the least.

 

[frayne]

Just as a side note, while I was in NCO shake n bake training at Ft. Benning, Kent State happened and I knew and had friends both in the NG as well as students. Very strange times for sure and those of us serving in the military at the time didn't know what to think.

Also had to laugh just a bit when they mentioned that the children of the elite and the political class in North Viet Nam avoided the war by leaving the country for schooling overseas or just because they were children of the elite. Guess regardless of type of government the ruling class always protect and look out for their own.

 

[Sunset]

....
I have yet to see any episode of this documentary, because I do not currently have access to broadband Internet. It sounded like it has some different info from the old 1983 documentary that I watched.
.....

Well you have something to look forward to, and I won't spoil it by telling you the ending

What I really like, is you see actual film footage from BOTH sides, and interviews from vets from BOTH sides.
Lots of stuff revealed that I never heard about or knew the details about.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

One thing that goes through my mind as I watch this series is IF communications/reporting were as instant as they are now, net, email, facebook, etc, I wonder if the war would have lasted as long as it did.

And yet, we DO have all of that TODAY, and there have been US troops going to Afghanistan since 2001. We have been had military activity in Iraq since 1991.

It seems like the same thing over and over again, but right now nobody cares about today's conflicts, perhaps because the body count is lower. Anyone who is in the military today has seen how much conflict there is daily, and how little of that makes it on the news. Every single deployment of an aircraft carrier in the the last 20 years has involved launching jets that go and bomb bad guys. It's just not news anymore.

 

[Marita40]

I had a long talk a couple days ago with a Russian faculty member, bordering on 60 years old, who emigrated to the U.S. in the 1990s. We were talking about what he experienced growing up in Moscow in terms of receiving information from outside Russia. He told me with a chuckle the elaborate underground activities of people like his father hooking up systems to listen to Voice of America and other illegal news stations. They were quite successful, evidently. One can certainly suspect the North Koreans are doing the same. I really hope I can see their freedom occur in my lifetime and hear their stories.