Let's talk Self Driving Cars again!

[NW-Bound]

If you look carefully at these videos, you will see that the deficiencies fall in two general classes.

1) The car simply does not see things that it should be able to see.

2) It sees the road, the other cars around it, but did not have the smart like a human driver to deal with the situation.

The 1st class of problems is extremely dangerous.

The 2nd class of problems, I am more lenient of. It will cause some nuisance, just like we saw with the Waymo car earlier in the thread, where the robotaxi did not know which lane it should take in a construction zone, stopped dead in this track, and called for a human driver to come for a rescue. Here, if a car cannot deal with the situation it can stop and not cause harms.

There's another video of the Tesla FSD V9, where the car could not merge onto a highway because of traffic. It could not find a spot to squeeze in, and had to abort and take the next exit, then reroute. An experienced human driver would be able to act more aggressively and barge in, but I will not blame a robotcar for not doing the same.

However, if the car vision system does not see and recognize an obstacle like a highway barrier, a pillar of a bridge, what do you think may happen?

And yet, Musk keeps making fun of other car makers who use lidar "as a crutch". I am still waiting to see he, or rather his engineers, deliver a robot car using only vision cameras.

[NW-Bound]

Again, I am very much interested in how Tesla is doing with just vision cameras and no lidar. If successful, it promises a much lower cost SDC.

Here in this video, you will see that Tesla system occasionally has double vision. It sees two cars where there's only one. And more strangely, the double cars are stacked on top of one another. I suspect that this is an artifact of the multiple cameras on Tesla cars having an overlap region.

There's a small region directly behind the car where the left and right rearview cameras overlap. Similarly the wide forward camera has an overlap with the right forward side view camera, and also the left forward side view camera. The system does not have the software to merge the interpretation from different cameras, and slight offsets from the cameras give rise to multiple images slightly offset from each other.

In the following video, this effect is seen most clearly when the cars are stopped at an intersection. Look at 5:20 and 9:20.

I should stress that none of this affects safety; the car can see and note more cars than a human driver can. It is just interesting and funny. A roof-mounted lidar like used in all other SDC makers avoids this double vision problem, but of course it makes the car unsightly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGrKpdn7upc&t=119s

[NW-Bound]

What I have been watching on YouTube are the beta versions of FSD. This is only available to 1 or 2 thousand Tesla owners, and the word on the Web is that most of them are Tesla employees, with only a few external customers.

So, if you buy a Tesla now with the $10K FSD option, what do you get? Tesla just announced a monthly subscription deal for $199. In case you don't know, all Tesla cars have been built with all the hardware for FSD. It's the software that you have to pay for, and this is what is downloaded with the monthly deal.

I saw this video by a gal who checked out the standard FSD for the 1st time. It is quite a bit more limited than the beta version we have been watching, and probably a lot safer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seU5H4eTgHg

[NW-Bound]

Does anyone here remember Mobileye?

This Israeli company was the partner with Tesla who built the 1st system for the Model S. The two companies had a fall-out after the first fatal accident in Florida, where a Tesla drove under a crossing semi-trailer and had its roof sheared off. Tesla decided to design and build its own. Mobileye was subsequently purchased by Intel.

I think the simple lane-keeping assist in my 2020 GM car is from Mobileye. The same system also provides forward-collision avoidance with the car in front, and it uses a single camera mounted in the windshield mirror. That's pretty much it, other than a Mobileye CPU now built by Intel.

Mobileye has been developing true SDC, but I have not heard much about it. Just today, saw this video from the company. It has a very interesting approach: develop two independent autopilots, one using only vision cameras, and the other using lidars and radars. For Level 4, they will combine both systems to achieve the high degree of robustness and safety that is required.

They just release a video showing a drive test of the vision-camera-only system. It is a bit long, and I did not watch all of it, after seeing only the first 5 minutes. Some viewers comment that it has but one left turn.

It should be noted here that Mobileye says it uses a detailed map of the area. Waymo and GM Cruise Automation also have accurate maps of their geofenced areas of operation. Tesla does not. This difference may explain some of the differences in performance, when Tesla cars show difficulty in figuring out which lane of the street to drive on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50NPqEla0CQ

[NW-Bound]

This YouTuber, Chuck Cook, is a good beta tester of Tesla FSD beta releases. He repeatedly tested different versions in what he found to be a challenging scenario for Tesla FSD to handle: doing unprotected left turns. He parked a drone above the scene, so that we could see clearly the situation in each case, how fast the oncoming cars were approaching and how close they were.

I watched his videos, and did not see any improvements from Version 8.2 to the current Version 9, although he said it got better. In his tests, in several instances Tesla FSD would have resulted in a head-on collision if he did not brake and prevented the car from surging onto an oncoming car. It was nerve-racking for me just to watch.

It made me ask these questions. Given the distance to an oncoming car and how fast it is approaching, a computer should have no problem computing the time it has to make the turn. The fact that Tesla FSD repeatedly made bad choices seemed to point towards these possibilities: either the vision system cannot make good distance estimates, or it cannot make good speed estimates.

How do humans do it?

PS. Chuck Cook said that it appeared that the FSD was able to correctly identify the gap when a left turn could have been made. However, either there was a delay in making that determination, or a delay in initiating the turn, and that would have caused a serious accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbMLW7QBspM

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound This YouTuber, Chuck Cook, is a good beta tester of Tesla FSD beta releases. He repeatedly tested different versions in what he found to be a challenging scenario for Tesla FSD to handle: doing unprotected left turns. He parked a drone above the scene, so that we could see clearly the situation in each case, how fast the oncoming cars were approaching and how close they were. ...

I don't always know what I'm seeing in these videos - at 0:34 for example, it sounds as if he intervened, but I'm not sure. Is there a way to know this? Are those ding-dong sounds telling us something? I don't have the decoder ring.

Quote:

It was nerve-racking for me just to watch.

He should put a heart rate monitor on screen! I bet it would have jumped in a few of those cases.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

I've only watched the first 2 minutes. It's awful.

I mean, this is a clear day, these intersections are not tricky at all, typical left hand turn, clear view, nothing hidden, no distractions like construction, no obstructions from parked cars, no pedestrians interfering, etc, and it still fails miserably.

These are not the extreme and rare events that we often talk about, this is everyday driving. Just awful (that is, awful in terms of thinking this is anywhere near ready to drive itself - but still amazing that it can even do this at all).

-ERD50

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 I don't always know what I'm seeing in these videos - at 0:34 for example, it sounds as if he intervened, but I'm not sure. Is there a way to know this? Are those ding-dong sounds telling us something? I don't have the decoder ring.

When he engaged the FSD by toggling the lever on the steering column, there was a "ding-dong" to signal the FSD was engaged.

When he stepped on the brake, the FSD disengaged, and confirmed with another "ding-dong".

[NW-Bound]

There was another video by Chuck Cook, where he observed that at an intersection where there were two traffic lights, one for driving through the intersection and another was for the right turn, the FSD mistook the right-turn signal for the main one. Result: the car ran the red light, when the light was green only for the right turn.

He came back to that intersection, and tried a few more times in order to catch the same condition. Yes, it did it again.

At least, it was good that Tesla recognizes that its software is nowhere near ready, and does not release it to more car owners for beta testing. There would be mayhem on the road.

Another story on the Web was reported by a Tesla owner when his car mistook a low yellow moon for the traffic yellow light, and slowed down while on a divided highway. He took video of the incidence.

[Koolau]

I'm sorry, but being "in city traffic", I don't think I would ever trust an "auto pilot" - I would want to drive myself. In moderate traffic on a major highway, I would appreciate the car keeping me between the lines. Our son's Teslas does that. After watching the videos, I think that's all I would ever trust a "system" to do for me. YMMV

[braumeister]

Apple is still in the game.

Quote:

Apple's fleet of self-driving vehicles roaming the streets of California for testing now includes 69 vehicles and 92 drivers, according to information from the California Department of Motor Vehicles

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/03...-driving-cars/

[dixonge]

Tesla under investigation:

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/10280...topilot-system

Evidently they keep hitting emergency vehicles...

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dixonge Tesla under investigation: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/10280...topilot-system Evidently they keep hitting emergency vehicles...

Interesting - I wish they would have provided some sort of comparison. Is this better/worse than w/o FSD/Autopilot/whatever-they-call-it engaged?

But I think that would take some data on what % of miles are driven in that mode, to differentiate human driver vs assisted. But Tesla has that data I think?

-ERD50

[pb4uski]

Did any of you see the piece on 60 Minutes last night on self-driving trucks (big semi rigs)? Very interesting piece.

[retire-early]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Did any of you see the piece on 60 Minutes last night on self-driving trucks (big semi rigs)? Very interesting piece.

I watched a bit of it.

I am in awe how far they have progressed.

[TriumphTR3fan]

There’s a YouTube channel “Wham Bam Tesla Cam” that features clips recorded by drivers that activated the Sentry system in the car. There’s many types of events but the most interesting are the accidents or near misses. Many show other drivers driving terribly & causing crashes. There are some that drivers have the Autopilot system activated & avoiding crashes due to the negligence of others. One particularly gripping event recorded an Oregon State trooper (in an SUV patrol vehicle not a Tesla) deliberately hitting a wrong way driver on I-84 in eastern Oregon near Ontario. It took great skill & bravery to stop that driver. The Tesla driver caught nearly all of it with the Sentry system. The cameras all record & you can watch them individually. There are also some photos showing the aftermath. Events like that remind me of how impactful SDC could be. Preventing these kinds of incidents is the goal of SDC.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IHcjGYnZrK4&feature=share

[Midpack]

Sandy’s upset…not partisan/political.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=8hcB1Z6-A7Q&feature=share

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack Sandy’s upset…not partisan/political. ...

I saw a bit of that earlier, couldn't really follow his train of thought. The comments are almost all Sandy fans saying "Give 'em hell Sandy!", so it was hard to find any analysis/explanation.

So after you posted it, I copied the transcript (noting his correction of fires/crashes), and I'm lost.

He starts talking about fire w/o any context at all.

Quote:

the results basically tell me that um 04:40 that 04:40 something dramatic must have happened in 04:43 order to get these types of fires 04:47 okay and and i don't think that people 04:50 with a normal range of intelligence 04:54 could possibly make these things happen

He thinks people are doing things to start Teslas on fire? I suppose some of the fires may have happened after a crash and some stupid driving, is that what he means? I don't know.

Then he seems to be in conspiracy mode, the investigations are all about shutting down Tesla?

edit/add:

Quote:

so tesla brings this stuff out talking 05:27 about how much safer it's going to be 05:30 for self-driving 05:32 and then 05:34 the same day 05:37 nishta 05:38 decides they're going to investigate 05:41 tesla 05:43 for car fires 05:47 is that is that a coincidence 05:50 what do you think boys and girls 05:52 do you think we're getting our legs 05:54 pulled

And he makes the logic judgement error that many make, that just because SDC have the potential to save lives, that means they will. He seems to be wanting to give them a green light on everything, just because their intentions are good? Ends justifies the means?

Then goes on about the number of fires in ICE - another logic error, you can't compare pure numbers because of the great difference in the number of ICE vs BV. And as we know, these lithium fires are much harder to deal with, they require tons of water, and monitoring for cooling for something like 24 hours, to make sure it doesn't start up again?

It certainly could be worthy of investigation if the rates are even close to what ICE cars are, due to that difference in firefighting. So investigate if warranted, then let the the numbers tell the story.

I know he's on youtube doing tear-downs and such, I might have skimmed a few of his videos, but this one leaves me thinking I'll skip any future ones, or at least bring along a large salt shaker.

-ERD50

[NW-Bound]

What is perplexing is that while Tesla AP can demonstrate good performance, at times it has shown some extremely bad behaviors such as ramming parked cars. Even the current FSD V9.2 is still disregarding road barricades, plus large obstacles on the road!

The following video shows the car about to run over a road barricade when the beta tester took over at 4:40. If you slow down the video to watch the path the car was projecting, you will see that for an instant it was thinking it could squeeze the car through a gap in the barricade that no vehicle could go through.

It's quite bizarre!

The car also exhibited some other instances of poor driving, in just a 13-minute drive in an easy road condition. I will let you watch the video to see for yourself.

By the way, Musk just tweeted that FSD Beta V10 would be released in a month to all car owners who bought this feature. That shows quite a confidence. I am looking forward to this release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efWXK0vWNJI

[NW-Bound]

Here's the most recent video uploaded by the same beta tester, Frenchie, on 8/24.

In a short drive of 16 minutes, on nearly deserted city streets, he had to intervene numerous times, including one when the car was headed straight towards a steel pillar.

The fact that Tesla system does not recognize steel pillars has been seen before, in an earlier video that I linked on V9 FSD. I do not remember if it was the same beta tester, or another one in a different city.

PS. I found it. The earlier video was linked on post #240 of this thread, and taken by a beta tester in Seattle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thmFYGKqFV4