Let's talk Self Driving Cars again!

[NW-Bound]

Here's a "fun" incidence with Waymo Robotaxi.

The car was exiting a residential area, and about to make a right turn onto a larger street when it encountered a benign road construction with traffic cones blocking the inner lane. It did not know what to do, and had to call home for assistance. Then, before human assistance arrived, it decided to move on its own, and correctly chose the outer lane. But then, it got stuck again when it tried to go to the inner lane. Then, it so happened that the construction crew removed the cones, and the car decided to move again once it was free of the dilemma. Then, it encountered traffic cones again further down the road, and got confused once more, so stopped in the middle of the road.

It's interesting to see how AI (Artificial Intelligence) may still have problems resolving some ambiguous situations that humans have no problems dealing with.

The interesting episode starts at 10:50.

 

[NW-Bound]

It should be noted that Waymo car sensors saw the traffic cones, but the AI software, called the Driver by Waymo, did not know how to act.

On the other hand, fatal accidents in Tesla cars were caused by a more basic problem: the car sensors simply did not "see" the fixed obstacles that were run into.

On May 5, 2021, another fatal accident involving a Tesla 3 happened in Fontana, CA. The Tesla car plowed into an overturned truck on a freeway, killing the driver and seriously injuring a man who was helping the truck driver.

The California Highway Patrol has not positively confirmed that Autopilot was engaged at the time of accident. The deceased Tesla 3 driver was known to have posted videos of "Look Ma, no hands" in the past. In addition, Tesla running into stopped vehicles on the road is nothing new; it happened quite a few times over the years. The cars simply did not see the stopped vehicles in their lane, nor did the drivers who were either asleep or busy doing something else.

 

[Midpack]

On May 5, 2021, another fatal accident involving a Tesla 3 happened in Fontana, CA. The Tesla car plowed into an overturned truck on a freeway, killing the driver and seriously injuring a man who was helping the truck driver.

The California Highway Patrol has not positively confirmed that Autopilot was engaged at the time of accident. The deceased Tesla 3 driver was known to have posted videos of "Look Ma, no hands" in the past. In addition, Tesla running into stopped vehicles on the road is nothing new; it happened quite a few times over the years. The cars simply did not see the stopped vehicles in their lane, nor did the drivers who were either asleep or busy doing something else.

Another reason to wait until we actually know what happened...

Footage has emerged showing the tragic Houston Woodlands accident in which it was widely publicized that the police insisted no one was in the drivers seat (leading many to instantly blame AutoPilot/FSD) - has since been proven false. The owner was found in the back seat, but a neighbors camera shows him getting behind the wheel on that fateful night, with the passenger in the front as well. In addition, the steering wheel was deformed, suggesting someone was sitting there when the accident took place. There were some online sources speculating the driver could not get out, and he jumped into the back seat trying to get out.

 

[donheff]

Here's a "fun" incidence with Waymo Robotaxi.

That is a fun video. I don't think I would take one of these things if I was going to something where time matters like the airport or a scheduled meeting.

 

[Koolau]

That is a fun video. I don't think I would take one of these things if I was going to something where time matters like the airport or a scheduled meeting.

Imagine frustrated drivers honking and the auto-functioning car simply ignoring them. How do you "road rage" against a self-driving car? YMMV

 

[ls99]

Imagine frustrated drivers honking and the auto-functioning car simply ignoring them. How do you "road rage" against a self-driving car? YMMV

A magick electronic disruptor would be very handy to totally disable all the electronics in the "not self driving" car. so the occupant would not enjoy the comforts of AC, heat etc.. Thus reqiring a tow.

 

[NW-Bound]

Besides Waymo in the US, there are two Chinese companies that have started trial services with robotaxis. One is AutoX with a small fleet of a few dozen cars or so in Shanghai, and the other one is Baidu operating inside an industrial park close to Beijing.

Both Chinese operations above are geo-fenced same as Waymo's, meaning the robotaxi operating areas are limited to areas that have been vetted. And they are also monitored in real-time by remote operators in case something unusual happens.

Yes, robotaxis are currently operationally more intensive and expensive than with human drivers. How long before it becomes profitable and with wider operating areas? I could not venture a guess. I don't think these companies know either. They are still experimenting.

 

[Midpack]

Wow, outlook not great at Waymo with 6 execs leaving recently? I was bullish on Waymo, but they seemed to have stalled in the past few years. Their tech seems to rely on a very highly structured environment, which probably isn’t practical. The Chandler robotaxi service operates in a 50 square mile area, about only a 7x7 mile square (equivalent).

CFO Ger Dwyer and Chief Automotive Officer Adam Frost said last week they intended to leave the company by the end of May.

Their departures follow the exit of former CEO John Krafcik, who left after six years on April. Other recent departures:
- Vijaysai Patnaik, who had led the company’s burgeoning self-driving truck technology, departed to lead product at Applied Intuition.
- Sherry House, treasurer and head of investor relations, left this month to become CFO at Lucid Motors.
- Tim Willis, who had been chief manufacturing and global supply officer and led the company’s Laser Bear lidar efforts, decamped for lidar tech company Aeva.

 

[Music Lover]

Imagine frustrated drivers honking and the auto-functioning car simply ignoring them. How do you "road rage" against a self-driving car? YMMV

Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.

 

[Music Lover]

A magick electronic disruptor would be very handy to totally disable all the electronics in the "not self driving" car. so the occupant would not enjoy the comforts of AC, heat etc.. Thus reqiring a tow.

That's a little extreme. And what if the non self driving car was in the right?

 

[Midpack]

Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.

That doesn’t apply to an autonomous vehicle that’s parked itself on the roadway - as in this example.

 

[Music Lover]

Besides Waymo in the US, there are two Chinese companies that have started trial services with robotaxis. One is AutoX with a small fleet of a few dozen cars or so in Shanghai, and the other one is Baidu operating inside an industrial park close to Beijing.

Both Chinese operations above are geo-fenced same as Waymo's, meaning the robotaxi operating areas are limited to areas that have been vetted. And they are also monitored in real-time by remote operators in case something unusual happens.

Yes, robotaxis are currently operationally more intensive and expensive than with human drivers. How long before it becomes profitable and with wider operating areas? I could not venture a guess. I don't think these companies know either. They are still experimenting.

Based on their past history, I can't think of any good reason to allow Google and China to control traffic. But perhaps I'm missing something.

 

[NW-Bound]

Imagine frustrated drivers honking and the auto-functioning car simply ignoring them. How do you "road rage" against a self-driving car? YMMV

Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.

Honking your horn is of course not road rage. I believe Koolau was thinking how it might escalate up.

I guess an enraged driver may sling dirt onto the robot car's lidar or spit onto its vision cameras. "Take that, dumb robotcar!"

 

[NW-Bound]

Based on their past history, I can't think of any good reason to allow Google and China to control traffic. But perhaps I'm missing something.

It's a free market. Whoever builds a robotcar first can deploy it.

There would have to be a good legal reason to prohibit a company from doing something that is open to everybody else.

 

[Music Lover]

It's a free market. Whoever builds a robotcar first can deploy it.

There would have to be a good legal reason to prohibit a company from doing something that is open to everybody else.

There are plenty of good reasons. I'm sure that you can think of a few if you really wanted to...

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^

Good enough to be upheld by the Supreme Court?

 

[ls99]

^
Sure thing. Say a foreign made self driving car's electronics hides a remote kill switch, controlled by a foreign gummint. If a a large base of their cars in existence, they can diasable them in one fell swoop at a very inconvenient time for US.

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^ OK. It's plausible.

How about Google? Or Apple, or any other big US corps? None of them are saints.

 

[ls99]

AFIK tesla can disable their cars remotely. No I do not have proof.


Not quiet a smoking gun, but close enough.
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion...our-car-and-i-saw-their-factory-software-engi
"
As you know Tesla has the ability to remotely disable your car and I saw their factory software engi


Tesla does have the ability to disable your car. I was recently at an overnight corporate event with a bunch of SpaceX and Tesla staffers and execs and in a drunken after hours party the SpaceX exec (VP) asked this question about his car to a present Tesla Software engineer. Not only did he remotely access the car, but he was able to spy on the location of the VP's girlfriend who was using the car in his absence. He offered the exec to kill the cars power in the driveway so she couldn't use it anymore, but there was some pain in the ass battery issue they didn't want to deal with to get the car going again (involved getting it towed). SO...Tesla does have the ability to stop your car and the children that both work for Tesla and SpaceX screw around with this feature during drunken escapades."

 

[Midpack]

Tesla has stated they can shut off a car remotely, but it’s a one-way switch, so the car the needs to be reactivated at a Tesla facility, at least (maybe requiring potentially expensive work done, too). So this ability is not to be used lightly.

But the ability to shut the car down depends on the car’s Internet connectivity. And it’s very easy to just tap the screen a few times and just turn any connectivity off. Or drive into he wilderness with no cellular coverage.

So it’s not as sinister as some would evidently like to believe…

 

[misanman]

Anecdotal info - A friend's son is an engineer working on self-driving cars for a major corporation. He reports that there was quite a bit of initial progress but getting the rest of the way there has been very discouraging. Apparently a very big issue is that society is willing to allow a level of error from individual drivers - lawsuits, if any, are limited to those involved. An error by a self driving car exposes the whole corporation to legal action. Consequently, self driving parameters need to be set on the "safe side", which makes the experience of riding in a self-driving car frustrating for occupants - 10 mph on residential streets.

 

[Koolau]

Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.

You haven't seen a true "honking" road rage, then.

 

[Koolau]

Tesla has stated they can shut off a car remotely, but it’s a one-way switch, so the car the needs to be reactivated at a Tesla facility, at least (maybe requiring potentially expensive work done, too). So this ability is not to be used lightly.

But the ability to shut the car down depends on the car’s Internet connectivity. And it’s very easy to just tap the screen a few times and just turn any connectivity off. Or drive into he wilderness with no cellular coverage.

So it’s not as sinister as some would evidently like to believe…

I can see it now. The Tesla guy in the control room intended to shut off one car and accidentally shut off every Tesla ever built - just like the clown here who sent out the message to 1.4 million Hawaii residents that we were under nuclear attack from N. Korea - and thoughtfully added "This is NOT a drill." IIRC, one person actually died on Oahu, arguably because of this "mistake." There were folks dropping their kids down man ways in the street to protect them. UH Students looked like a Brownian motion experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion#/media/File:Brownianmotion5particles150frame.gif

Probably wouldn't happen, but, then again, see my tag line. Oh, and YMMV.

 

[GTFan]

Anecdotal info - A friend's son is an engineer working on self-driving cars for a major corporation. He reports that there was quite a bit of initial progress but getting the rest of the way there has been very discouraging. Apparently a very big issue is that society is willing to allow a level of error from individual drivers - lawsuits, if any, are limited to those involved. An error by a self driving car exposes the whole corporation to legal action. Consequently, self driving parameters need to be set on the "safe side", which makes the experience of riding in a self-driving car frustrating for occupants - 10 mph on residential streets.

Exactly what I would have expected, given the limitations of the tech and current lack of a legal liability framework. No way can a MegaCorp take on that kind of risk for FSD.

IMO at some point (years down the road) fed legislation is going to be created to, in effect, give the cover to them that computers are better than people so just deal with it.

 

[jazz4cash]

Honking your horn is of course not road rage. I believe Koolau was thinking how it might escalate up.

I guess an enraged driver may sling dirt onto the robot car's lidar or spit onto its vision cameras. "Take that, dumb robotcar!"

Or carry traffic cones or other random objects to place in the road to confuse the AI.