Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-18-2021, 01:25 PM   #161
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.
That doesn’t apply to an autonomous vehicle that’s parked itself on the roadway - as in this example.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 05-18-2021, 01:26 PM   #162
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Besides Waymo in the US, there are two Chinese companies that have started trial services with robotaxis. One is AutoX with a small fleet of a few dozen cars or so in Shanghai, and the other one is Baidu operating inside an industrial park close to Beijing.

Both Chinese operations above are geo-fenced same as Waymo's, meaning the robotaxi operating areas are limited to areas that have been vetted. And they are also monitored in real-time by remote operators in case something unusual happens.

Yes, robotaxis are currently operationally more intensive and expensive than with human drivers. How long before it becomes profitable and with wider operating areas? I could not venture a guess. I don't think these companies know either. They are still experimenting.
Based on their past history, I can't think of any good reason to allow Google and China to control traffic. But perhaps I'm missing something.
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 01:29 PM   #163
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
Imagine frustrated drivers honking and the auto-functioning car simply ignoring them. How do you "road rage" against a self-driving car? YMMV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.

Honking your horn is of course not road rage. I believe Koolau was thinking how it might escalate up.

I guess an enraged driver may sling dirt onto the robot car's lidar or spit onto its vision cameras. "Take that, dumb robotcar!"
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 01:34 PM   #164
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Based on their past history, I can't think of any good reason to allow Google and China to control traffic. But perhaps I'm missing something.
It's a free market. Whoever builds a robotcar first can deploy it.

There would have to be a good legal reason to prohibit a company from doing something that is open to everybody else.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 01:46 PM   #165
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
It's a free market. Whoever builds a robotcar first can deploy it.

There would have to be a good legal reason to prohibit a company from doing something that is open to everybody else.
There are plenty of good reasons. I'm sure that you can think of a few if you really wanted to...
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 02:28 PM   #166
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
^^^

Good enough to be upheld by the Supreme Court?
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 02:32 PM   #167
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,499
^
Sure thing. Say a foreign made self driving car's electronics hides a remote kill switch, controlled by a foreign gummint. If a a large base of their cars in existence, they can diasable them in one fell swoop at a very inconvenient time for US.
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 02:42 PM   #168
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
^^^ OK. It's plausible.

How about Google? Or Apple, or any other big US corps? None of them are saints.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 02:52 PM   #169
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,499
AFIK tesla can disable their cars remotely. No I do not have proof.


Not quiet a smoking gun, but close enough.
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/...-software-engi
"
As you know Tesla has the ability to remotely disable your car and I saw their factory software engi


Tesla does have the ability to disable your car. I was recently at an overnight corporate event with a bunch of SpaceX and Tesla staffers and execs and in a drunken after hours party the SpaceX exec (VP) asked this question about his car to a present Tesla Software engineer. Not only did he remotely access the car, but he was able to spy on the location of the VP's girlfriend who was using the car in his absence. He offered the exec to kill the cars power in the driveway so she couldn't use it anymore, but there was some pain in the ass battery issue they didn't want to deal with to get the car going again (involved getting it towed). SO...Tesla does have the ability to stop your car and the children that both work for Tesla and SpaceX screw around with this feature during drunken escapades."
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 02:57 PM   #170
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
Tesla has stated they can shut off a car remotely, but it’s a one-way switch, so the car the needs to be reactivated at a Tesla facility, at least (maybe requiring potentially expensive work done, too). So this ability is not to be used lightly.

But the ability to shut the car down depends on the car’s Internet connectivity. And it’s very easy to just tap the screen a few times and just turn any connectivity off. Or drive into he wilderness with no cellular coverage.

So it’s not as sinister as some would evidently like to believe…
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 03:24 PM   #171
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
misanman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,246
Anecdotal info - A friend's son is an engineer working on self-driving cars for a major corporation. He reports that there was quite a bit of initial progress but getting the rest of the way there has been very discouraging. Apparently a very big issue is that society is willing to allow a level of error from individual drivers - lawsuits, if any, are limited to those involved. An error by a self driving car exposes the whole corporation to legal action. Consequently, self driving parameters need to be set on the "safe side", which makes the experience of riding in a self-driving car frustrating for occupants - 10 mph on residential streets.
misanman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 03:35 PM   #172
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Honking at a slow moving car isn't road rage. It's a signal that you're blocking traffic and need to get the heck out of the way.
You haven't seen a true "honking" road rage, then.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 03:47 PM   #173
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Tesla has stated they can shut off a car remotely, but it’s a one-way switch, so the car the needs to be reactivated at a Tesla facility, at least (maybe requiring potentially expensive work done, too). So this ability is not to be used lightly.

But the ability to shut the car down depends on the car’s Internet connectivity. And it’s very easy to just tap the screen a few times and just turn any connectivity off. Or drive into he wilderness with no cellular coverage.

So it’s not as sinister as some would evidently like to believe…
I can see it now. The Tesla guy in the control room intended to shut off one car and accidentally shut off every Tesla ever built - just like the clown here who sent out the message to 1.4 million Hawaii residents that we were under nuclear attack from N. Korea - and thoughtfully added "This is NOT a drill." IIRC, one person actually died on Oahu, arguably because of this "mistake." There were folks dropping their kids down man ways in the street to protect them. UH Students looked like a Brownian motion experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browni...es150frame.gif

Probably wouldn't happen, but, then again, see my tag line. Oh, and YMMV.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 07:15 PM   #174
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GTFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ormond Beach
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by misanman View Post
Anecdotal info - A friend's son is an engineer working on self-driving cars for a major corporation. He reports that there was quite a bit of initial progress but getting the rest of the way there has been very discouraging. Apparently a very big issue is that society is willing to allow a level of error from individual drivers - lawsuits, if any, are limited to those involved. An error by a self driving car exposes the whole corporation to legal action. Consequently, self driving parameters need to be set on the "safe side", which makes the experience of riding in a self-driving car frustrating for occupants - 10 mph on residential streets.
Exactly what I would have expected, given the limitations of the tech and current lack of a legal liability framework. No way can a MegaCorp take on that kind of risk for FSD.

IMO at some point (years down the road) fed legislation is going to be created to, in effect, give the cover to them that computers are better than people so just deal with it.
GTFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2021, 09:36 PM   #175
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 8,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Honking your horn is of course not road rage. I believe Koolau was thinking how it might escalate up.

I guess an enraged driver may sling dirt onto the robot car's lidar or spit onto its vision cameras. "Take that, dumb robotcar!"


Or carry traffic cones or other random objects to place in the road to confuse the AI.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
jazz4cash is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2021, 07:40 AM   #176
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by misanman View Post
Anecdotal info - A friend's son is an engineer working on self-driving cars for a major corporation. He reports that there was quite a bit of initial progress but getting the rest of the way there has been very discouraging. Apparently a very big issue is that society is willing to allow a level of error from individual drivers - lawsuits, if any, are limited to those involved. An error by a self driving car exposes the whole corporation to legal action. Consequently, self driving parameters need to be set on the "safe side", which makes the experience of riding in a self-driving car frustrating for occupants - 10 mph on residential streets.
I’m not sure I agree that relative safety will ultimately block adoption of level 5 cars IF they prove to prevent 90% of accidents, as was the original mission of many self driving car programs.

I think “getting the rest of the way” is the overriding barrier, and doing so cost effectively. I still believe we’ll have level 5 cars, but it’s going to take much longer to handle those last details. No matter how good an autonomous cars vision and “intelligence” is, there’s no end to the variations in environment (missing/vandalized road markings, signs, etc., construction zones) and other moving objects (cars and people acting unpredictably). It’s great that AI will almost immediately help other cars deal with new situations, there will be some failures when each new situation is encountered.

Ironically, we’d probably get there quicker is all cars were replaced at once so all cars would be predictable - though that won’t happen. The period when human operated and computer operated cars coexist on roadways, will be more difficult.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2021, 09:52 AM   #177
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Out of Steam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by misanman View Post
Anecdotal info - A friend's son is an engineer working on self-driving cars for a major corporation. He reports that there was quite a bit of initial progress but getting the rest of the way there has been very discouraging. Apparently a very big issue is that society is willing to allow a level of error from individual drivers - lawsuits, if any, are limited to those involved. An error by a self driving car exposes the whole corporation to legal action.
It's going to be very hard to implement fully self-driving vehicles that aren't as good as the most capable individual drivers--probably the best 5%, say career professional drivers with those "million-mile" safety awards. That's the point at which it gets hard to argue that a hands-on driver would have done better than the automation in a particular instance.
Out of Steam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2021, 11:39 AM   #178
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out of Steam View Post
It's going to be very hard to implement fully self-driving vehicles that aren't as good as the most capable individual drivers--probably the best 5%, say career professional drivers with those "million-mile" safety awards. That's the point at which it gets hard to argue that a hands-on driver would have done better than the automation in a particular instance.
Sorry to disagree. If FSD vehicles can reduce accidents and fatalities by 80-90%, it’ll be very hard to stop adoption of FSD if they’re affordable. Whether or not that matches the “best 5%” (how would you measure that?) wouldn’t matter with that kind of reduction. Insurance for human driven cars will become prohibitively expensive if/when FSD cars are dramatically safer, again if they’re affordable. And human driven cars will probably be prohibited in high traffic areas. I’m talking decades from today, not soon.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2021, 11:49 AM   #179
Moderator
Aerides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 13,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out of Steam View Post
It's going to be very hard to implement fully self-driving vehicles that aren't as good as the most capable individual drivers--probably the best 5%, say career professional drivers with those "million-mile" safety awards. That's the point at which it gets hard to argue that a hands-on driver would have done better than the automation in a particular instance.
But it will be better than the other 95%, of whom at least 50% would self-identify as top 5'ers... And if everyone were raised in level then the need for the 5% drops - one needn't be an expert if there are no twits to avoid.
Aerides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2021, 02:23 PM   #180
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
I was banned from Facebook once for 24 hours for posting the wrong response on an issue even though it was factually accurate. It's a known and proven fact that Google (Waymo) already blocks factual information that they deem inappropriate. Just wait until they are able to stop people from driving.

As Koolau says "Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be."
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Self Driving Cars? mountainsoft Technology, Media & e-Gadgets 1433 03-27-2020 08:05 PM
Cars , Cars and more Cars for the car guys Breedlove Other topics 123 04-24-2019 04:39 PM
Self-driving cars for retirees explanade Other topics 27 08-21-2016 01:32 PM
Self-Driving Cars -- Needs of the Many vs Numero Uno easysurfer Other topics 218 08-20-2016 09:50 PM
Are you looking forward to self driving cars? harley Other topics 160 11-20-2015 06:46 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:11 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.