Looking for Perspective Regarding College

[athena53]

I posted this on another site, but think it might belong here too.

This is going to sound snotty... but it's not meant to be.
For the student AND the parent... the college decision should be the number 1 priority, and accordingly, the preparation may well be the most important part of the next four years... monetarily as well as for future well being.

Dayum. My parents told me they'd pay for state schools. I chose the one my boyfriend attended which was also Dad's alma mater. (And then the BF transferred to a school on the other side of the country.)

I like your DIL's approach though, because there are so many mediocre schools and programs out there now that employers can be very picky. I hope I'm around to influence my grandchildren's choices- the oldest is only 5 so I have awhile.

 

[MarieIG]

I forgot to add that I also had a guaranteed job when I graduated.

 

[Starsky]

Talk to the admissions officers of the schools you are interested in. Schools have vastly different priorities in admissions and you may find that there are other opportunities that can help defray the cost during his tenure, or even a new rationale for you on how to get your head around it. Fore example, after the first year, many corporations will recruit summer interns from the best schools and offer employment to STEM students and even tuition reimbursement for those they want to ultimately recruit and hire. I had employees who got their undergrad degrees and MBAs paid for by my company.

Student loans, is another way to access money for school that the student can try and get their employer to pay when they are hired. If your son is a high-achiever and is committed to achieving his goals, the investment will pay for itself. (If not, it's a terrible waste of money.)

I learned a lot by visiting colleges with my nephew. CalTech for example is a school who chooses their students carefully and has no financial challenges to get the students they want to have. The flip side is that it is incredibly selective. But the programs - like the Mars Rovers - are unbelievable. Your son would have to bring a lot to the table - but some can. And it would be worth it even if you had to come up with 100%, which you ultimately wouldn't.

If your son isn't a valedictorian, there are plenty of great schools that are affordable, and have successful alumni; but are not Ivy League or Stanford. It's hard to get in to those schools and applying to both easier/more affordable and harder/more expensive schools is always a good strategy. Receiving a letter of acceptance is when the decision-making really happens. Good luck!

 

[jt999]

Killing Them with Kindness

I'm happy to hear your portfolio is rolling along nicely. Just to add some context - the jump in income is very recent and we live in a HCOL area. Our goal is to find VALUE for MONEY investing in our child's education. It's an investment. The intent of The post was to try to understand different options and get information from parents/students of Top Schools. And I have received such great feedback and want to thank everybody for their advice. Thanks to some other posters, I was able to find that Northeastern awards up to 30K annually for the National Hispanic Merit Scholar (which my son earned ) Just one correction on your statement below. Many of the Ivy schools are need blind. So, those that are less fortunate can attend despite their family's limited resources at drastically reduced rates. It's an easy decision for those families (and may God bless them). It's not such an easy decision if you are fortunate to have resources. And therein, lies the conflict. It's a form of wealth re-distribution (with the University as the broker), IF you DECIDE to partake in it. And that's a BIG IF for us.

This thread is about a non-problem in my opinion. I was early retired with 2 kids in college at one time. Our portfolio was up 2 years in a row by more than the TOTAL cost of a 4-year Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT/Stanford education. With income as high as the jt999 (the OP) reports which is several times my highest income, I realize that posting is about garnering sympathy, but it ain't coming from me.

Basically, somebody has to attend these expensive colleges and it might as well be the children of people who can trivially afford it such as the OP's family. The child probably won't get in anyways since they are very selective, so it is not something to really worry about.

 

[target2019]

When I was younger, my mother would call this "cryin' the blues."
Time to give up the cash (get a loan) or go to second tier of choices.
Unless you're ultra-rich, paying for multiple college degrees is gonna hurt.

 

[jt999]

That's a Great Story

Really went the extra mile to make it happen and it paid off!

I posted this on another site, but think it
might belong here too.

This is going to sound snotty... but it's not meant to be.
For the student AND the parent... the college decision should be the number 1 priority, and accordingly, the preparation may well be the most important part of the next four years... monetarily as well as for future well being.

Unfortunately the selection process does not always reach to that level. Too often it is influenced by preconceived notions ... "We can only afford community college", "The guidance counselor suggested 'XYZ' or, "Your cousin Joey went there".

I'd like to cite as example that I know of (My Daughter in Law's work with her three children to work with and select the optimal school, and cost.) For each of the two sons and one daughter, she spent many.. many hours... researching, writing, visiting and seeking out the best combination of aid and future potential. This involved much work on the part of the kids, too.. as now, many schools not only look at grades, SAT scores or records of achievement outside of school... but also require the writing of essays.

In each case, submission of admission requests to as many as seven or eight colleges. I thought "crazy" at the time, but here's what happened. (I should add that all three kids are somewhat above average, so that helped.)

#1. Four year renewable scholarship for the first four years, and now in the second year of post graduate for which he also received a large subsidy.

#2. Received a Stamps scholarship
Stamps for four years... 100% Tuition, room and board, books, and $10,000 for an international trip during the last years of school. (he now has offers for postgraduate scholarships for his doctorate.

#3. Full tuition scholarship @ U of F in Tampa, and now a paid Associate in the Advanced Psychology Program pursuing PG degree.

Along the way dozens of rejections or failure to receive scholarship offers. Never talked about it this way, but I would guess many hundreds of hours in research and prep.

At this point, in today's dollars, I would guess between $800K and $1+M... and maybe more.

More discipline than I could muster, but a wonderful payoff, allowing my Son and DIL to retire @ 60, with no debt.

 

[jt999]

Exactly

We are looking at ALL choices (I wouldn't call them second tier). Loans are a big no-no for us. Now, I like the idea of settling on an amount we are willing to pay and then having our son take out a loan to pay for 1 year (have some extra skin in the game) IF he decides it's worth the extra cost.

When I was younger, my mother would call this "cryin' the blues."
Time to give up the cash (get a loan) or go to second tier of choices.
Unless you're ultra-rich, paying for multiple college degrees is gonna hurt.

 

[ivinsfan]

When I was younger, my mother would call this "cryin' the blues."
Time to give up the cash (get a loan) or go to second tier of choices.
Unless you're ultra-rich, paying for multiple college degrees is gonna hurt.

Did you mean second tier pricing or second tier quality? They are not the same thing. I hate to think society has reached the point where it's OK to shame parents that don't want to shell out 300K for a bachelors degree for a teenage.

 

[target2019]

When I was younger, my mother would call this "cryin' the blues."
Time to give up the cash (get a loan) or go to second tier of choices.
Unless you're ultra-rich, paying for multiple college degrees is gonna hurt.

Did you mean second tier pricing or second tier quality? They are not the same thing. I hate to think society has reached the point where it's OK to shame parents that don't want to shell out 300K for a bachelors degree for a teenage.

Second tier of choices. It's precisely that in the post I made. Parent and child make a list of choices, right?

 

[SecondCor521]

I would echo what the other posters have written about having discussions about what you'll support and what you won't. It is very good to talk with your child about the amount of money available, what your priorities are (some parents want influence/input on the decision based on school / major / location - not me, but it's a reasonable option). I like systems where the kid has incentives to at least consider cost in their process.

OP, you are correct that the Ivy League doesn't offer merit scholarships. They are *incredibly* selective these days. These schools could take an entire entering class, throw them out, and replace them with a set of the next best students and arguably not even notice any reduction in quality. They turn down thousands of kids every year who are valedictorians with ridiculously good SAT scores, athletic achievements, community service, etc., etc. etc. Bottom line, they don't have to offer merit scholarships.

If I were you I would not put the Ivies on a pedestal though. They can be good schools, but the top notch schools just below the Ivies can be just as good or even better depending on how well the student fits at that school. Students at Stanford can pretty much write their own ticket, but it's not an Ivy. I went to an Ivy for the first five semesters of undergrad, then finished at a top-notch regional liberal arts university. I got a better education at the latter, in my opinion, and I've worked alongside Ivy grads here and there doing the same job getting the same pay. Ivies will get you connections in areas like investment banking and executive positions in major metro areas, so depending on what degree your son chooses and how ambitious he is, that could pay off. But most of the time, the kid who could get into an Ivy will do just as well regardless of school - I believe there are studies showing that to be true in terms of salaries at least.

What I did with my second and third kid was to talk about career options in high school and have them at least have some ideas about what direction they wanted to go. We added in school size, location, and selectivity to the mix, aiming for schools where they were in about the 75th percentile of the student body, which helps get scholarships and is a good idea per Outliers (Maxwell) I think. I'm dropping the second kid off at college today, and the third kid already has school and major picked out and will go a year from now. It seems to be working, but of course, lots of ways to skin a cat.

Good luck!

 

[Nords]

Hi - I am 48 and my spouse is 46. Our son is 17 and is a top notch student. He has really worked his tail off and he has the academic stats to get into just about any university, including some Ivies.

He's primarily interested in some different areas of engineering for undergrad (has not made up his mind exactly) as he's very gifted in the STEM domain but he is also very interested in business. He also has his own brokerage account and he's learned a lot (with some of my advice) about personal finance/investing.

I'm trying to provide him with guidance - My wife and I believe that an engineering undergrad is the best way to go as he can always get his MBA if and when he wants to transition into different roles or management.

I'm finding it incredibly frustrating that none of the Ivies we've looked at offer any type of Merit Awards. They are all needs-based - is that correct? At 400K annual income (thanks to 40% increase in the last couple years), it's a slam dunk that we will not qualify for ANY type of financial assistance.

So, how do you steer your child who has worked so hard to look at universities that offer more merit based scholarships so attending school does not put my wife and I OR him in the poor house? I want college to be a challenging and enriching experience for him but also want to make the decision that leaves us all on sound financial footing. I don't think I can stomach ~300K for a 4 year degree (and heaven help us if it's a 5 year program) and I don't want him saddled with loans (under any circumstance). We do have a sizable amount saved in 529 but still have a very significant gap.

I feel very conflicted. It was always our goal to help both our kids obtain a marketable undergrad degree (1 down, 1 to go) but the numbers this round are staggering. In a sense, I want him to be able to go to college wherever he wants (as we believe he's earned it) but also want the price tag to be doable for all of us (and by doable, I don't mean the admission's office ability to pay). It will also likely derail any dreams of FIRE'ing in 4-5 years.

I would appreciate any advice or perspective (even better, if it's from folks who have gone through before). Thank You.

I would look at Rice University, Houston. It is a top engineering school and there tuition policy is very generous if you qualify.

Rice University Announces Free Tuition for Low and Middle-Income Students. Rice University will offer free tuition to low- and middle-income students starting in the fall of 2019. ... Students whose families make between $65,000 and $130,000 per year could receive full-tuition scholarships.

JT, maybe it's time to forget about the Ivies and look at other schools which are less crowded and better in some ways.

I'll give you the advice that this forum gave to our family over a decade ago:
Apply to Rice University. I was skeptical but the campus visit changed my mind. (It's way better than my USNA alma mater.) More importantly, our daughter knew it was the right place about 10 minutes after we walked through the hedges.

They have merit scholarships too. Our daughter received several of the smaller ones enroute graduating with an engineering degree in 2014. If your son wants to stick around for business classes or an MBA then they have a good program there as well.

 

[MikeTN]

Engineering is one field where the ivies have virtually no advantage over the top state universities, if you judge by reputation and job prospects. My son studied mechanical engineering at Purdue, graduated with good grades, had no trouble getting accepted at two top MBA schools (Harvard and Chicago), after working a while for John Deere. Purdue has a top ranking by the WSJ and Purdue's undergrad engineering has a top rating by U.S. News. Michigan and UC-Berkeley may be ranked as high but cost more.

 

[jt999]

Schools Added This Week

Northeastern - already on the list but focused more on this one
Purdue (Top 10 Engineering rank across various domains)
Pitt
Vanderbilt
Northwestern
Rice - I have seen this listed high in the rankings - we'll do some research but I just can't see him wanting to go from the Northeast to Texas - not sure about the Midwest either - I'd prefer to have him graduate from a university where there are ample opportunities locally - Boston is very appealing in that respect.

He's been flip-flopping between Applying ED to Cornell and Carnegie Mellon but he has others besides the ones above on the list. I would probably say he'd like to stay in the Northeast.

Engineering is one field where the ivies have virtually no advantage over the top state universities, if you judge by reputation and job prospects. My son studied mechanical engineering at Purdue, graduated with good grades, had no trouble getting accepted at two top MBA schools (Harvard and Chicago), after working a while for John Deere. Purdue has a top ranking by the WSJ and Purdue's undergrad engineering has a top rating by U.S. News. Michigan and UC-Berkeley may be ranked as high but cost more.

 

[oldphd]

Engineering is one field where the ivies have virtually no advantage over the top state universities, if you judge by reputation and job prospects.

As an engineer who spent 25 years in industry and 10 at a research university, I agree with this.

The advice I gave my son when he was looking at engineering schools, go to a good state university, keep your grades stellar and stay at the top of the class, then go for a graduate degree at one of those name schools if you still want to. Let them pay you to go to school.

He ended up doing an MBA, 2 years full time, and by piecing together different scholarships had about 75% of his tuition covered.

 

[Scuba]

As an engineer who spent 25 years in industry and 10 at a research university, I agree with this.



The advice I gave my son when he was looking at engineering schools, go to a good state university, keep your grades stellar and stay at the top of the class, then go for a graduate degree at one of those name schools if you still want to. Let them pay you to go to school.



He ended up doing an MBA, 2 years full time, and by piecing together different scholarships had about 75% of his tuition covered.

Great idea!

 

[LiveBelowMeans]

JT. Take a look at Penn State and Virginia Tech. Both have great engineering programs and awesome alumni networks. Two of my kids went to these and have been very successful. Jmho

 

[jt999]

Thank You

We've visited VA Tech. I have 2 nephews that graduated - both in engineering/cs. I liked it. He wasn't feeling the campus. He thought it kind of popped up out of nowhere - I thought it had a nice downtown but he seems to be more attracted to having easy access to small/large city at his doorstep..

JT. Take a look at Penn State and Virginia Tech. Both have great engineering programs and awesome alumni networks. Two of my kids went to these and have been very successful. Jmho

 

[nhcycling]

MIT s/b on the list but you probably already have it on there

 

[Ready-4-ER-at-14]

I wonder if it may be time for parents to boycott US universities and send their children overseas? Although there may be some logistic problems and a need for US based education for some degrees, certainly some countries must have a suitable degree or reciprocal recognition of degrees in many areas.

 

[Amethyst]

I was a National Merit Finalist in high school. I didn't get the scholarship. In fact I ended up in a community college, where they put me in all the advanced placement courses they could. It was great fun. I also completely lacked any "connections" whatsoever. Anyway, many years later, I FIREd at age 57. So there. Your son will be fine, and so will you!

 

[joeea]

I wonder if it may be time for parents to boycott US universities and send their children overseas?

Why would parents do that?

Other countries send many of their students here.

 

[CardsFan]

Northeastern - already on the list but focused more on this one
Purdue (Top 10 Engineering rank across various domains)
Pitt
Vanderbilt
Northwestern
Rice - I have seen this listed high in the rankings - we'll do some research but I just can't see him wanting to go from the Northeast to Texas - not sure about the Midwest either - I'd prefer to have him graduate from a university where there are ample opportunities locally - Boston is very appealing in that respect.

He's been flip-flopping between Applying ED to Cornell and Carnegie Mellon but he has others besides the ones above on the list. I would probably say he'd like to stay in the Northeast.

Bold by me. I went to Northeastern, DS went to Purdue. Both great schools, not just for engineering, but for other careers, as well.

DS started Purdue for engineering. After a year, he did well, but decided it was not for him. Switched to finance.

So, pick a school that has other offerings. DS may decide something else is more interesting.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I hate to think society has reached the point where it's OK to shame parents that don't want to shell out 300K for a bachelors degree for a teenage.

There seemed to have been a lot of competition among some of the parents in our area for school choice based on name recognition alone for their kids. And yeah, definitely some college shaming went on, especially for community college choices. But actually in California, even schools like Berkeley get a significant percentage of their new students from community colleges. We focused our kids more on hard data and reports like these instead and it worked out well for us and them.

Salary by College
https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

Majors That Pay You Back
https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-pay-you-back

America's Best Value Colleges
https://www.forbes.com/best-value-colleges/

Occupational Outlook Handbook
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/

 

[bolt]

We've visited VA Tech. I have 2 nephews that graduated - both in engineering/cs. I liked it. He wasn't feeling the campus He thought it kind of popped up out of nowhere . - I thought it had a nice downtown but he seems to be more attracted to having easy access to small/large city at his doorstep..

IMHO = Stop the "feeling it" nonsense.
This is school, preparing for the real world. Attend to excel and attain recognition & BS/BA certification!
I went to universities a block or two from "downtown housing projects" in BOS.
I went to summer school courses there also to get out of there sooner and IT WAS CHEAPER! I was paying!
Anyone w/skin in the game will do their best if their paying the note.

Good Luck!

 

[Brat]

I researched schools with my daughter, one of my criteria was the placement rate of a school's graduates. We were looking at schools with engineering programs but she didn't want a large university (try to find one of those sometime). We settled on Santa Clara University. By the middle of her sophomore year she didn't feel that engineering was what she wanted to do so she switched majors to finance. That was fortuitous (in every sense).

My advice is to find a school where a change of major won't set your student back. Also, look at how long it takes students to graduate. As someone else mentioned if it takes 5 years to earn a degree that diploma is expensive whatever to tuition.