Looking for Perspective Regarding College

[nap470]

My wife and I just moved our daughter (an only child) into Washington University this weekend. Hardest and happiest day of our life...although mom has not quite found the happy part yet. Our daughter is similar to your son academically but with no interest in engineering but is a nationally recognized writer/author and very talented in the sciences. No declared major yet but considering neuroscience and will minor in Spanish. We looked at the Ivies but she was not interested and can't say mom and dad were either. She was accepted to several of the top ranked private universities which all stated they only gave needs-based scholarships. And in the end, they all held their promises. No scholarship. She had multiple scholarship offers from state schools and "lesser" colleges. We did not put any restrictions on her decision. Our thought was that there is no way to justify the enormous cost of college these day, and if we kept thinking of it as a $300K bachelor's degree then we would never sleep well. In the end we wanted her to have the best opportunity and also remain a close part of our life. She was accepted to several very good east coast schools, but in the end it came down to Vanderbilt and Washington University. She chose Washington to be closer to us (5 hours by car) and we are thrilled. We have saved all her life in 529 plan. Ten years ago it would have paid for 3 kids to go to college. Now it will cover only 3 years due to increased prices. But in the end, our daughter ended up where she best fits in and is happy and so are we. We could either make this investment in her now or possibly leave her with a greater inheritance later. We would rather share in her experiences now while we are alive rather than after we are gone. It's different when you only have one to plan for. If I have to delay retirement for a couple more years, it will be well worth it to enjoy her successes.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 Rice - I have seen this listed high in the rankings - we'll do some research but I just can't see him wanting to go from the Northeast to Texas - not sure about the Midwest either - I'd prefer to have him graduate from a university where there are ample opportunities locally - Boston is very appealing in that respect.

Yeah, I was skeptical at first, but the Houston members of this forum persuaded me to keep an open mind. The Rice tour was exceptional, with far more value for the dollar and plenty of job opportunities. (You might want to check into the Fortune 500 companies paying college interns in Houston, as well as the opportunities for research at the Texas Medical Center.) Our daughter blossomed on that campus, launched from the nest, and achieved orbit parameters.

Based on her comments from tours and summer camps, Rice offers a far better experience than USNA, Notre Dame, RPI, and even CMU.

If you're going to impose a northeast bias on your young adult then you might as well just pick an Ivy.

Or, here's a thought: let him review all the campus websites, visit his top three picks, and make his own decision. Spending $1000 or so on that decision is far better than spending $25K on a rocky first semester at a university that's not a good fit.

[jt999]

It's #9 in chemical engineering so we'll look into it. We're not imposing a northeast bias - I'm okay with him going anywhere provided he's feels comfortable. It's important that he has a strong support system available. He's only crossed the mason Dixon line (other than driving to Florida on Vacation) like 2 times so going to Texas is kinda like you and I going to the moon. It's also 63K all-in. What's your take on accessibility to merit-based scholarships with Rice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Yeah, I was skeptical at first, but the Houston members of this forum persuaded me to keep an open mind. The Rice tour was exceptional, with far more value for the dollar and plenty of job opportunities. (You might want to check into the Fortune 500 companies paying college interns in Houston, as well as the opportunities for research at the Texas Medical Center.) Our daughter blossomed on that campus, launched from the nest, and achieved orbit parameters. Based on her comments from tours and summer camps, Rice offers a far better experience than USNA, Notre Dame, RPI, and even CMU. If you're going to impose a northeast bias on your young adult then you might as well just pick an Ivy. Or, here's a thought: let him review all the campus websites, visit his top three picks, and make his own decision. Spending $1000 or so on that decision is far better than spending $25K on a rocky first semester at a university that's not a good fit.

[jt999]

Just some context, my mom and dad were blue collar workers and somehow made it and paid for my brother and I to get through college. My father worked nights at a factory to get the shift differential. So, for an extra $2 or $3/hour, he worked from 8 pm to early morning. He slept from 9 am to 5 pm and then would often cook dinner for us before heading off to work. I went private and it was expensive and I know they re-fi'd the mortgage to do it. They went to great lengths to provide me with a better opportunity than they had. Given that, I told my children early on that if they excelled academically, I would support them going to the college of THEIR choice. Like you, my wife and I did not want to put any restrictions on our children. And I will support my son in his decision but there is some frustration with the lack of access to offset the cost to make it more reasonable. There are state schools - yes - where he would get scholarships - but will these challenge him enough and help him grow and put him on the best possible footing for a prosperous career? I have not been living under a rock - I see the news and commentary about how expensive college has become but it's just come into sharper focus going through this process with him. I have a daughter and she was a student-athlete and landed a great opportunity. A good student, yes - but not on the same level as my son. We'll figure it out - the way I look at it is there are a lot of great options and it's just doing the cost-benefit analysis and pros/cons exercise. One aspect I find very interesting is very few colleges offer Early Action, ONLY Early Decision. That really limits your ability to compare and make an informed decision AND it's intentional so they get you in on their terms. As somebody who was hoping to FIRE, I'm just trying to get through the "nervous" stage regarding the potential cost. We've been contributing to his 529 since he had a SS card and yet - it will only cover 3 semesters at some of these schools. It's tough - Sometimes, I feel like the recent promotions are working against us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap470 My wife and I just moved our daughter (an only child) into Washington University this weekend. Hardest and happiest day of our life...although mom has not quite found the happy part yet. Our daughter is similar to your son academically but with no interest in engineering but is a nationally recognized writer/author and very talented in the sciences. No declared major yet but considering neuroscience and will minor in Spanish. We looked at the Ivies but she was not interested and can't say mom and dad were either. She was accepted to several of the top ranked private universities which all stated they only gave needs-based scholarships. And in the end, they all held their promises. No scholarship. She had multiple scholarship offers from state schools and "lesser" colleges. We did not put any restrictions on her decision. Our thought was that there is no way to justify the enormous cost of college these day, and if we kept thinking of it as a $300K bachelor's degree then we would never sleep well. In the end we wanted her to have the best opportunity and also remain a close part of our life. She was accepted to several very good east coast schools, but in the end it came down to Vanderbilt and Washington University. She chose Washington to be closer to us (5 hours by car) and we are thrilled. We have saved all her life in 529 plan. Ten years ago it would have paid for 3 kids to go to college. Now it will cover only 3 years due to increased prices. But in the end, our daughter ended up where she best fits in and is happy and so are we. We could either make this investment in her now or possibly leave her with a greater inheritance later. We would rather share in her experiences now while we are alive rather than after we are gone. It's different when you only have one to plan for. If I have to delay retirement for a couple more years, it will be well worth it to enjoy her successes.

[Teacher Terry]

JT, did your parents end up financially stable after borrowing money from the house for your college?

[jt999]

Yes, they made it. They are retired and living the dream in Florida now. They are far from wealthy but financially secure. They shared their estate plan with me and it sure looked like they are on sound footing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teacher Terry JT, did your parents end up financially stable after borrowing money from the house for your college?

[jt999]

I just wanted to Thank everybody for their viewpoints and advice. We'll try to turn over as many rocks as we can and find the best fit. God Bless. I'll try to remember to post and let you guys know how it turns out.

[SecondCor521]

jt999, I'm going to reply again.

In post #87 on this thread, you share two conflicting viewpoints: 1. No restrictions, go wherever you want and wherever is best. 2. Go to the best school but take cost into consideration.

I think the first one is your parent's viewpoint and I think the second one is closer to your true feelings on the matter. I suspect in talks with your son you have expressed the first one more.

It will be hard to do so, but I think you either need to (a) decide on which one you're going with and if it's different than what your son has heard up to this point, do the hard work of expressing the changed circumstances to him ASAP, or (b) stick with viewpoint 1 to your son, and suck it up buttercup and write the checks.

I'll reiterate that the best way to get merit scholarships in my opinion is to pick a school where your son is in the top 10-25% of the student body academically. Given your son's stats, there will be dozens to hundreds of schools to pick from. Then he can narrow them down on other criteria (majors, distance from home, whatever).

I will also add that with as many schools out there as there are, there are fairly fine graduations between schools. I looked at 25%-75% ACT scores for my son, and his final three school choices were 26-32, 27-32, and 28-32 on that metric. His next two choices were 29-33 and 26-31. And really, if you put a bunch of kids who scored between 31 and 34 in a room and let them talk for an hour but told them not to share ACT scores directly, their guesses as to what others scored would probably not be any better than chance. Same thing with GPAs between 3.75 and up.

This fine degree of variance between lots of schools means that if you do enough sifting you should be able to come up with a school that is good enough for your son to feel like he is challenged and has great opportunities, but also will see your son as a target for merit aid.

Ah, one other thing. I would recommend starting with an online database of schools and putting in your criteria to generate a list and then ask people for opinions on the schools. There are tons of schools out there (3,000 or so I believe in the US alone) and most people when asked for suggestions will name a limited set of about 50 of those (Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Rice, etc.). There are a bunch of good schools in that remaining 2,950 that you'll miss if you don't start with the whole list. We used the College Board site (Big Future), but there are plenty out there that will do the same thing.

Another excellent tip if I say so myself is to go to each college's estimated financial aid calculator and put in your data and see what they say. Colleges who receive federal aid (which is 99.999% of them) are required to have one. We were told, and I have found it to be true in our case, that the estimates there are very close to what you can expect to get both in terms of merit aid and financial aid. The latter will almost certainly be zero in your case, but you never know; there are some niche scholarships around and if your son fits into one of those buckets that may be a one-off situation that works for him.

Good luck!

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 Hi - I am 48 and my spouse is 46. Our son is 17 and is a top notch student. He has really worked his tail off and he has the academic stats to get into just about any university, including some Ivies. He's primarily interested in some different areas of engineering for undergrad (has not made up his mind exactly) as he's very gifted in the STEM domain but he is also very interested in business. He also has his own brokerage account and he's learned a lot (with some of my advice) about personal finance/investing. I'm trying to provide him with guidance - My wife and I believe that an engineering undergrad is the best way to go as he can always get his MBA if and when he wants to transition into different roles or management. I'm finding it incredibly frustrating that none of the Ivies we've looked at offer any type of Merit Awards. They are all needs-based - is that correct? At 400K annual income (thanks to 40% increase in the last couple years), it's a slam dunk that we will not qualify for ANY type of financial assistance. So, how do you steer your child who has worked so hard to look at universities that offer more merit based scholarships so attending school does not put my wife and I OR him in the poor house? I want college to be a challenging and enriching experience for him but also want to make the decision that leaves us all on sound financial footing. I don't think I can stomach ~300K for a 4 year degree (and heaven help us if it's a 5 year program) and I don't want him saddled with loans (under any circumstance). We do have a sizable amount saved in 529 but still have a very significant gap. I feel very conflicted. It was always our goal to help both our kids obtain a marketable undergrad degree (1 down, 1 to go) but the numbers this round are staggering. In a sense, I want him to be able to go to college wherever he wants (as we believe he's earned it) but also want the price tag to be doable for all of us (and by doable, I don't mean the admission's office ability to pay). It will also likely derail any dreams of FIRE'ing in 4-5 years. I would appreciate any advice or perspective (even better, if it's from folks who have gone through before). Thank You.

Look at land grant schools such as purdue, mich state,iowa state, tx a&m etc, also u of tx has a good engineering school. Also depends on the state you live in as in state tuition is always lower.

Even Cornell's land grant portion has lower tuition than the rest of cornell.
I think land grant engineering schools have better reputations. Of course for EE think of Stanford. In if you want the science/engineering ivies, try MIT and caltech (but no merit aid). But in many cases if grad school is in the picture this school is far more important than the undergraduate school.

[Golden sunsets]

"In post #87 on this thread, you share two conflicting viewpoints: 1. No restrictions, go wherever you want and wherever is best. 2. Go to the best school but take cost into consideration."

I caught that inconsistency as well. It is a little late in the game to be choking on the cost.

[SnowballCamper]

Just looked at MIT's admission statistics on their website. The admission rate is 6.7% from a pool where over half the applicants have perfect scores. They would have to administer some other metric to to determine merit among the applicants. Perhaps this is why there are no merit scholarships...it's just not worth it to differentiate among the top 0.01% of high school students.

[eytonxav]

I don't think an ivy league school is the hot ticket for engineering. There are plenty of state and private schools that would be much better choices.

[Buckeye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhcycling MIT s/b on the list but you probably already have it on there

The daughter of one of my best friends just graduated from MIT. She got a great education and it was an extraordinary experience based on her feedback. Also, she has both domestic and international connections. Her parents were both teachers so I believe her tuition was 100% paid. Her parents covered room and board which is more than what I paid a year at a private college back in the 'old days!'

[ncbill]

STEM major with those test scores & grades should be applying to the service academies (USMA/USNA/USAFA) & for ROTC scholarships in all branches as well.

That's the most realistic way to get his undergrad paid for by someone other than his parents.

Which is what my kids did.

[sengsational]

Internationally ranked schools don't need to offer academic scholarships (discounts)...they get plenty of smart kids to apply without any incentives. One of my daughters, the valedictorian at her huge high school, came back from her first semester and said something like "yeah, just about everyone there was the valedictorian." The smaller the school, the more likely they'll offer academic scholarships to kids with exceptional SAT scores because they're trying to boost their statistics.



As to trying to offer incentives to go to a reasonably priced school, I made both of my kids the same incentive. The basis of the "deal" was that the choice would have no impact on my finances beyond emptying their respective 529 accounts. Those accounts, equal in size between the two, was large enough to cover public school and a new car at graduation. So they could choose the public route with a free car and no debit, or private school, no car (and the burden of any loans that would be required). One kid selected public one private. Both situations worked out just fine. I didn't put any restrictions on "marketable degree", just a 4 year degree from an accredited school. One went engineering, one art/English, and both got great jobs.

[Golden sunsets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational Internationally ranked schools don't need to offer academic scholarships (discounts)...they get plenty of smart kids to apply without any incentives. One of my daughters, the valedictorian at her huge high school, came back from her first semester and said something like "yeah, just about everyone there was the valedictorian." The smaller the school, the more likely they'll offer academic scholarships to kids with exceptional SAT scores because they're trying to boost their statistics. As to trying to offer incentives to go to a reasonably priced school, I made both of my kids the same incentive. The basis of the "deal" was that the choice would have no impact on my finances beyond emptying their respective 529 accounts. Those accounts, equal in size between the two, was large enough to cover public school and a new car at graduation. So they could choose the public route with a free car and no debit, or private school, no car (and the burden of any loans that would be required). One kid selected public one private. Both situations worked out just fine. I didn't put any restrictions on "marketable degree", just a 4 year degree from an accredited school. One went engineering, one art/English, and both got great jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnowballCamper Just looked at MIT's admission statistics on their website. The admission rate is 6.7% from a pool where over half the applicants have perfect scores. They would have to administer some other metric to to determine merit among the applicants. Perhaps this is why there are no merit scholarships...it's just not worth it to differentiate among the top 0.01% of high school students.

This is most definitely the case. 100%
of the incoming class of elite institutions or programs are exceptional students. OPs sons profile will be no better than the the rest of his classmates, so if there is aid to be distributed, the schools can only differentiate by income. It also serves their mission to be need blind, an admirable mission. If it were by merit, everyone would receive a merit aid. When our child was admitted to an Ivy, we accepted that the tuition we paid, subsidized those who would not have been able to otherwize afford it.

[RunningBum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 We've visited VA Tech. I have 2 nephews that graduated - both in engineering/cs. I liked it. He wasn't feeling the campus. He thought it kind of popped up out of nowhere - I thought it had a nice downtown but he seems to be more attracted to having easy access to small/large city at his doorstep..

That's a spot-on description, IMO. VT is a large campus in a small town, adjacent to a larger town. A lot of people love it, especially all of the outdoors activities in the adjacent mountains. Some do not. If he didn't have a good feeling based on an accurate view, he probably wouldn't do well there.

[friar1610]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby My alma mater was ranked by U.S. News & World Report as tied for #4 in "2019 Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs". It is free*, as is the school with which it was tied. I received an excellent engineering education there and later went to an Ivy League law school. *monetarily, at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby I forgot to add that I also had a guaranteed job when I graduated.

I haven't seen it mentioned into this thread, but ROTC scholarship programs provide excellent financial support (although not as comprehensive as the "free" service academies). The programs are generally at top-notch schools (including Ivies) and are ideal for those who are positively disposed toward a stint of military service but who might want something less than the "total immersion" environment of the academies. And the services are hot to get engineering/technical grads.

[socca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 There are state schools - yes - where he would get scholarships - but will these challenge him enough and help him grow and put him on the best possible footing for a prosperous career?

I went to state schools for undergrad and grad degrees and have no regrets. What my Dad paid for 4 years of undergrad out-of-state engineering tuition in the early 1980s would pay for only one semester today (not inflation-adjusted) .

Challenged enough? We can turn your question around and ask whether your kid will survive his college education with even a smidgen of his native curiosity intact. The competition for good grades at top-notch universities can be intense. My somewhat idealistic contention is that this is a corruption of what the educational process should be like. Students should be encouraged to become lifelong learners & explorers - whatever native curiosity they may have should be nurtured rather than crushed by our educational system.

There are so many variables involved in having a prosperous career that it's impossible to micromanage all of them to produce the desired result. Some aspects of your son's maturation process will be identical whether he attends an elite educational institution or only a "respectable" one.

Good luck!

[jt999]

Thank You, especially for re-posting. I did ready your earlier post. I did some more digging this weekend and found some scholarship opportunities for him to pursue in the northeast. He would be in the running based on the stat-line so we'll see. My approach for funding was to try to have 2/3 in 529 for a mid-level private. I estimated this would be around 50K all-in annually (or 200K), which would have been close to 100% 8 years ago (even for Ivies). That formula worked great for my daughter. We paid some out of pocket along the way to stretch the 529 but it was not as painful. Yes, you are correct - I have contradicted myself. I did not know then what I know now. There are a lot of moving parts here. My concern is I want him to be able to put all the options against one another to have some choices but he's pretty deadest on applying ED to CMU or Cornell (Acceptances Rates are miniscule RD) so even if he applied EA or RD to other schools and applied for scholarships and there were some favorable outcomes, he may not get the opportunity to compare if he gets accepted at CMU or Cornell. And that is a shame but also by design. Our high school has a well established pipeline to Cornell (similar rankings have gotten in some years and not in others) and guidance counselor thinks he has a shot and described it as a crapshoot. I liked my son's wording better - he said "I have a puncher's chance Dad" if I can bump my ACT up a couple of points. He found out a few months ago that he was awarded a National Hispanic Program Award. I don't know if it will help. If he gets accepted ED, I will wish him the best and write the checks with the understanding he will contribute 50-75K. I don't want to dissuade him. In the meantime, we'll turn over rocks using some of your tips. I like niche, prepscholar and college confidential. And we'll seek out alternatives to see what type of merit aid is available in case we have to see what's behind Door #2. And keep faith that everything will work out (and re-commit myself to daily prayers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondCor521 jt999, I'm going to reply again. In post #87 on this thread, you share two conflicting viewpoints: 1. No restrictions, go wherever you want and wherever is best. 2. Go to the best school but take cost into consideration. I think the first one is your parent's viewpoint and I think the second one is closer to your true feelings on the matter. I suspect in talks with your son you have expressed the first one more. It will be hard to do so, but I think you either need to (a) decide on which one you're going with and if it's different than what your son has heard up to this point, do the hard work of expressing the changed circumstances to him ASAP, or (b) stick with viewpoint 1 to your son, and suck it up buttercup and write the checks. I'll reiterate that the best way to get merit scholarships in my opinion is to pick a school where your son is in the top 10-25% of the student body academically. Given your son's stats, there will be dozens to hundreds of schools to pick from. Then he can narrow them down on other criteria (majors, distance from home, whatever). I will also add that with as many schools out there as there are, there are fairly fine graduations between schools. I looked at 25%-75% ACT scores for my son, and his final three school choices were 26-32, 27-32, and 28-32 on that metric. His next two choices were 29-33 and 26-31. And really, if you put a bunch of kids who scored between 31 and 34 in a room and let them talk for an hour but told them not to share ACT scores directly, their guesses as to what others scored would probably not be any better than chance. Same thing with GPAs between 3.75 and up. This fine degree of variance between lots of schools means that if you do enough sifting you should be able to come up with a school that is good enough for your son to feel like he is challenged and has great opportunities, but also will see your son as a target for merit aid. Ah, one other thing. I would recommend starting with an online database of schools and putting in your criteria to generate a list and then ask people for opinions on the schools. There are tons of schools out there (3,000 or so I believe in the US alone) and most people when asked for suggestions will name a limited set of about 50 of those (Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Rice, etc.). There are a bunch of good schools in that remaining 2,950 that you'll miss if you don't start with the whole list. We used the College Board site (Big Future), but there are plenty out there that will do the same thing. Another excellent tip if I say so myself is to go to each college's estimated financial aid calculator and put in your data and see what they say. Colleges who receive federal aid (which is 99.999% of them) are required to have one. We were told, and I have found it to be true in our case, that the estimates there are very close to what you can expect to get both in terms of merit aid and financial aid. The latter will almost certainly be zero in your case, but you never know; there are some niche scholarships around and if your son fits into one of those buckets that may be a one-off situation that works for him. Good luck!