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03-15-2011, 06:30 PM
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#101
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
I see, thank youk. So can they or are they sampling the surface ground, parking lots, etc. nearby? The stuff cannot hide, so it seems that all people need to do is take the instruments and start looking around, as if they were looking for lost rings on a beach.
There must be something I do not get about the difficulties involved.
Ha
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Yes, I'm certain they are now sampling the areas around the plant and downwind and will continue to do so. But, as far as I can tell, there has not been a substantial release of contamination. We know there has been some, because U.S. helicopters flew through the cloud and were apparently mildly contaminated. (they were subsequently decontaminated)
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03-15-2011, 06:46 PM
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#102
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
Yes, I'm certain they are now sampling the areas around the plant and downwind and will continue to do so. But, as far as I can tell, there has not been a substantial release of contamination. We know there has been some, because U.S. helicopters flew through the cloud and were apparently mildly contaminated. (they were subsequently decontaminated)
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OK, thank you again. So we should be getting some good information before long, from what they say and what they do. I doubt they would try to pull a Russky Chernobyl trick and lie; just wouldn't be prudent.
Ha
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"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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03-15-2011, 06:49 PM
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#103
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
I see, thank youk. So can they or are they sampling the surface ground, parking lots, etc. nearby? The stuff cannot hide, so it seems that all people need to do is take the instruments and start looking around, as if they were looking for lost rings on a beach.
There must be something I do not get about the difficulties involved.
Ha
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Are there reports stating that there are difficulties involved, or that they aren't actively mapping out or concerned about the spread of contamination, or simply don't have the manpower or coordination right now? I haven't read anything about that outside of the news on the reactor sites themselves.
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I'm free and I like it!
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03-15-2011, 06:52 PM
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#104
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredGypsy
Are there reports stating that there are difficulties involved, or that they aren't actively mapping out or concerned about the spread of contamination, or simply don't have the manpower or coordination right now? I haven't read anything about that outside of the news on the reactor sites themselves.
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No, not that I know of. I was just wondering why more of that information isn't coming out yet.
Ha
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"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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03-15-2011, 06:59 PM
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#105
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
It is incredibly difficult to figure out what is actually happening at Fukushima by reading news reports. The nuclear industry uses very precise terminology, because it is very important to be precise about what you are describing. Journalists are not so precise. In the first instance, journalists are not trained in this area, don't know basic physics and engineering concepts and can't properly explain them. Accordingly, they conflate concepts and use the wrong terms. Almost as important is the journalists' overwhelming urge to sensationalize.
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Gee I thought grenades and atom bombs were the only things that close counted . I image this must be frustrating for trained nuclear engineers to hear journalist prattling on knowing most of them had troubles passing physics for poets.
One of the things I am grateful for is the forums like this are filled with people who actually understand things like this and take the time to explain it. Your 4 paragraphs on radiation explained more than listening to several explanations on TV and then trying to use Wiki to try and sort out REMs and milli-severts.
In the long run, I hope the world of journalism evolves from people who look and sound good on TV, or perhaps write well, to the situation where you have people who are experts in field and are good at explaining things.
I think CNN's Sanja Gupta's is my vision of the ideal journalist of the future.
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03-15-2011, 07:08 PM
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#106
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
No, not that I know of. I was just wondering why more of that information isn't coming out yet.
Ha
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The information collected is sort of technical and dry. It doesn't make good headlines. I suspect the radiologic crews are too busy measuring, plotting, and otherwise working the problem to spend much time trying to educate the press.
I'm very sure that there have been folks running around with air samplers and various instruments to keep track of what, if anything is leaking.
The levels of contamination are low. The US Navy helicopter crew picked up detectable levels of contamination, and picked up a radiation dose equivalent to what they'd get from the potassium in 40-45 bananas.
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03-15-2011, 07:22 PM
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#107
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 979
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And already the despicable people are trying to grab attention from this. Way to go there, former Aflac duck.
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03-15-2011, 07:33 PM
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#108
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,856
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Thanks, Gumby, among the Japanese PR lying to the media, the translation errors of technical nuclear vocabulary, and the CNN stupidity filter, it's been a little difficult to figure out the facts.
I've been jonesing for a good schematic with dimensions-- and particularly elevations. Is it possible that these plants were designed with their core primary-coolant inlets or outlets too low? Not enough water covering the core before the decay heat started boiling it away? Do they even know if the control rods (or what's left of them) been fully inserted?
I suppose it would be overly optimistic to hope for an accurate map of the vapor plume escaping released from the containment buildings...
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette
I'm very sure that there have been folks running around with air samplers and various instruments to keep track of what, if anything is leaking.
The levels of contamination are low. The US Navy helicopter crew picked up detectable levels of contamination, and picked up a radiation dose equivalent to what they'd get from the potassium in 40-45 bananas.
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I've been waiting to read about the announcement on the aircraft carrier: "All hands in the engineering department muster topside with radiacs for flight deck survey."
On a more serious note, I'm hoping that some smart PR nuke at Bettis or GE will step up to say "And that, Congressman, is why we need to fund the pebble-bed reactor..."
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03-15-2011, 07:41 PM
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#109
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,499
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FWIW from BBC:
Key points
- A new fire broke out inside reactor 4 at the Fukushima Daaichi nuclear plant, which was damaged in Friday's earthquake and tsunami - TV pictures of rising smoke suggest it may still be alight
- Radiation levels remain too high for workers to approach the four reactors
Also:
- 0117: Live Japanese television pictures appear to show white smoke still billowing in the area of the building housing the No.4 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, despite reports that a new fire there was under control.
Time is GMT
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There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
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03-15-2011, 08:21 PM
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#111
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ls99
FWIW from BBC:
Key points
- A new fire broke out inside reactor 4 at the Fukushima Daaichi nuclear plant, which was damaged in Friday's earthquake and tsunami - TV pictures of rising smoke suggest it may still be alight
- Radiation levels remain too high for workers to approach the four reactors
Also:
- 0117: Live Japanese television pictures appear to show white smoke still billowing in the area of the building housing the No.4 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, despite reports that a new fire there was under control.
Time is GMT
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The Guardian UK says the fire was the same place as before. That it was not properly extinguished the first time and that it is now out.
Japan nuclear crisis and tsunami - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk
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03-15-2011, 08:53 PM
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#112
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,994
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Gumby...thanks for the understandable explanations. I think the frustrations and speculations have come from ...the lack of good information flowing out of Japan. Not releasing measurable information makes the situation worse. Read something tonight that said on a scale of 1 to 7 for nuclear events, Japan initially rated it a 4. Others are now calling it "at least a 6".
Continuing to bother me are the continued after shocks that are measuring over 6 on the richter scale.
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03-15-2011, 10:20 PM
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#114
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
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The CNN nuclear expert seems quite concerned about this.
Can't they perform operations like pumping seawater, closing and open valves, monitoring radiation remotely. Do they need to be on site?
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03-15-2011, 10:43 PM
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#115
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
The CNN nuclear expert
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Now there's an oxymoron!
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
Can't they perform operations like pumping seawater, closing and open valves, monitoring radiation remotely. Do they need to be on site?
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Perhaps the issue is lack of power and potential damage to the indicators. TMI had the same issue with an overwhelming number of alarms & indicators, only most of which were known to be working correctly. This led to the operators picking & choosing their favorite "believable" indicators, with disastrous results.
So it's conceivable that the operators are resorting to checking their local indications.
I suspect they're also exhausted and not sure what they're willing to believe anymore.
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Author of the book written on E-R.org: "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement."
I don't spend much time here— please send a PM.
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03-15-2011, 11:10 PM
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#116
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 7,111
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Back in the late 50s I set my sights on becoming a physicist, until I learned that I needed a PhD in the era the opportunities for women were nurses, teachers and secretaries. I used to play with radioactive stuff.
I was confident that the govt promises of safe storage of nuclear waste would be fulfilled. Well, I will soon be 70 and that hasn't come to pass.
The current problem in Japan is very unfortunate for those of us who want nuclear power to become a practical reality. What is worse is that the real long term problem, storage of spent waste, has yet to be addressed.
This incident will effectively stop nuclear power plant development during my remaining lifetime. Maybe the next generation will solve the problem of spent waste recycling/storage in time for a new generation of facilities.
On that note I will have another glass of wine. Lachaim!
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Duck bjorn.
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03-15-2011, 11:18 PM
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#117
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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The Tokyo stock exchange closed strong, and the Nikkei and other averages are mostly up, as are many assorted issues. TEPCO (owner of Fukushimi Daiichi plant) has resumed trading today. It closed at 921 yen, after trading at just below 2200 yen the day before the earthquake.
But overall the market itself is less worried than before, and these guys are trading maybe 300km southwest of Sendai. So if their appraisal means anything, things are no worse and possibly better than yesterday.
Ha
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"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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03-16-2011, 01:38 AM
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#118
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: midwestern city
Posts: 4,061
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How are you doing Rambler ?
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Very conservative with investments. Not ER'd yet, 48 years old. Please do not take anything I write or imply as legal, financial or medical advice directed to you. Contact your own financial advisor, healthcare provider, or attorney for financial, medical and legal advice.
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03-16-2011, 04:50 AM
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#119
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
The CNN nuclear expert seems quite concerned about this.
Can't they perform operations like pumping seawater, closing and open valves, monitoring radiation remotely. Do they need to be on site?
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If I recall correctly (and it has been 22 years), at my plant there was an offsite emergency control center from which you could do certain things remotely. I don't know if they have that at Fukushima. And even if they do, given that things are far from normal, I don't know whether they can do what is needed at the moment.
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Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
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03-16-2011, 05:23 AM
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#120
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
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BBC: 0702: Japan's NHK TV confirms that the evacuation order for nuclear plant workers has been lifted.
Apparently it was due to a spike in radiation levels, now they're back.
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