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Old 07-01-2020, 06:45 AM   #21
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As far as getting a deal you are happy with, I'm no help. I can add to your choices of trucks and that is, I have a Colorado and is the ranch truck and is worked hard in tough conditions year around. It has 160K on it and has been a great outfit and work horse for me. I do everything with that truck that I would do with my full size trucks.

Good luck in your choice.
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:21 AM   #22
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i think you are focused on the wrong thing... what they give you for your trade doesn't matter... it is the net, out the door price that matters... focus on that... the check you have to write (or loan amount).
pb4uski had a lot of good advice, but this sums it all up perfectly. Read up on the 4 square con game that dealers play, they will basically hook you by making one term more attractive....which they then compensate for by padding their profit somewhere else.

What I do is choose a particular model and trimline option, and then request quotes online from about a dozen dealers. Back in the pre-internet days, I'd call and say I am ready to buy, I want an out-the-door price quote good for the next X days, and I'll be buying from whomever gives me the lowest quote and follows through on it. If they won't give me a price without me coming to the showroom, they don't get my business. If they say they need to check with their manager, they can call back and leave a message with my quote, but I'll be moving ahead with my purchase in X days.

Basically, all this forced them to do what a few dealerships now do for all sales: offer a no-haggle price, preferably with a small, set, disclosed markup over their dealer invoice price. If you can find the dealer invoice price (it shouldn't be hard), quote them that, and aim for about 3-5% over cost, although generally anything close to 5% is usually pretty good.
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:29 AM   #23
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Qs,
Thanks for the encouragement.
I did use TrueCar to purchase the civic, and got a bunch of on line offers. Might try this again.

If I eliminate the trade, it makes the negotiating much easier.

I want a L71 model without any additional add ons. That is kind of a standard configuration.

I sold a car in march to Carvana on line and it was the most painless sale I have ever done. You enter the vin #, mileage, condition, color etc and they give you a quote within an hour.
They show up in your driveway with a car transporter and check in hand and off they go.
I also was able to sell it to them for only $14-1500 less than dealers were asking for them (as a starting price ) on their websites/lots.
So I didn't have to list it, didn't have to deal with people trying to get a loan and backing out etc

It was a 2019 Subaru Outback that I paid $24500 for and Carvana gave me $22400 for. Interestingly it looks like hey sold it for $25900 used when I only paid the $24500 new. I guess people are willing to pay a premium for convenience as they deliver it to your door when you buy it online.They also have a 7 day money back trial period

Considering I had it for 10 months and put 8000 miles on it I consider that making out pretty good considering all the stories you hear about the 20% or more depreciation you get when driving a new car off the lot.
I will admit however to getting a great deal on it when new because subaru has redesigned the Outback for 2020 and they were giving great deals on the 2019's at that time.


Bottom line its worth checking out and shows that although I would never buy from them for their elevated prices, I gladly sold to them for the same reasons.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:21 AM   #24
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... I'm not a strong negotiator ...
I disagree. You are better than probably 90% of the people the dealer sees. You understand one of the most important rules of negotiating: If you're not willing to leave the table, you're not negotiating. You're begging.

That said, I agree with @pb4 that the details of trade-in, etc. don't matter. The only thing that matters is the bottom line, the check you'll write at the end. Truck price, trade-in, doc fees, etc., whatever is in the calculation is a don't-care.

Another thought: Why new? You could take a nice vacation or enjoy 52 expensive dinners with good wine for the amount of depreciation you'll probably eat during your first year of ownership. Buy a year or two old and used or at least search the dealers for a truck that is one model year old but still on their lot. Then they eat most of the depreciation.

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... Another gotcha is the doc fee. They'll bullshit you that is it required by law or some other rubbish or that they have no latitude and it is required and preprinted on their documents. All bull. It is just an administrative processing fee for them to do their paperwork. ...
Really it's not. It is simply additional dealer profit. As I am refusing to pay the fee I often get: "But that's a real cost. It costs us money to process that paperwork." My response is always the same: "Sure it costs you money to handle the docs. I agree completely. But it also costs the dealership to stripe the parking lot, to pay the electricity bill, and to pay your salary. There is nothing at all special about pushing the paper that would justify this kind of last minute charge." Then the F&I guy splutters a little bit and I add: "Just give me the paperwork. I'll take it to the DMV." That, of course, is a non-starter but it is frequently on the path to the ultimate end where they capitulate.

Edit: I did have a manager tell me one time that the doc fee was required by law. I said: "May I see a copy of that law, please?" That pretty much took the air out of his sails. I think there are state laws that limit doc fees, but that doesn't make them required.

General observation from buying a couple of cars recently: I think the publishing of prices on the internet has forced the dealers to offer lower starting prices and to advertise "no negotiation, best price always." If they don't look competitive on their web sites, they won't get any inquiries. This trend takes some of the fun out of the game, though.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:30 AM   #25
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I disagree. You are better than probably 90% of the people the dealer sees. You understand one of the most important rules of negotiating: If you're not willing to leave the table, you're not negotiating. You're begging.

That said, I agree with @pb4 that the details of trade-in, etc. don't matter. The only thing that matters is the bottom line, the check you'll write at the end. Truck price, trade-in, doc fees, etc., whatever is in the calculation is a don't-care.

Another thought: Why new? You could take a nice vacation or enjoy 52 expensive dinners with good wine for the amount of depreciation you'll probably eat during your first year of ownership. Buy a year or two old and used or at least search the dealers for a truck that is one model year old but still on their lot. Then they eat most of the depreciation.

Really it's not. It is simply additional dealer profit. As I am refusing to pay the fee I often get: "But that's a real cost. It costs us money to process that paperwork." My response is always the same: "Sure it costs you money to handle the docs. I agree completely. But it also costs the dealership to stripe the parking lot, to pay the electricity bill, and to pay your salary. There is nothing at all special about pushing the paper that would justify this kind of last minute charge." Then the F&I guy splutters a little bit and I add: "Just give me the paperwork. I'll take it to the DMV." That, of course, is a non-starter but it is frequently on the path to the ultimate end where they capitulate.


General observation from buying a couple of cars recently: I think the publishing of prices on the internet has forced the dealers to offer lower starting prices and to advertise "no negotiation, best price always." If they don't look competitive on their web sites, they won't get any inquiries. This trend takes some of the fun out of the game, though.

It does take some of the fun out doesn't it. Although I admit I am one of those who likes to bargain hard with automobiles and enjoy most of the process except the initial visit to a dealer to test drive where they want to sit you down and keep you there a bit with all there silly routine questions.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:36 AM   #26
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I was in the same situation over the last 2 weeks in that I wanted a "new to me" car, but was getting unreasonably low trade-in value even though my previous car was in better shape than most used vehicles the dealers had on their lot. I listed my vehicle on 3 different sites in my area and got very quick interest from a couple people and ended up selling in about a week, and got $2,500 more than the best trade-in offer received from 3 different dealers. I also agree with others that you should consider buying something 1-3 years old and saving a ton of money. My last 3 vehicles were all 3-years old and had around 30K miles and I got them for nearly 50% off the original price and have had no issues with any of these cars.
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:39 AM   #27
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Pushing for a good deal is worth the effort, but leaving over a $200 difference does not make sense to me.
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:49 AM   #28
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Pushing for a good deal is worth the effort, but leaving over a $200 difference does not make sense to me.
The behavioral finance people write about this kind of decision. It is part of "mental accounting."

If you were choosing between two televisions, identical in every way, would a $200 price difference make a difference to you? I think it probably would.

But $200 is $200, regardless of the context, so logically we humans should value it the same whether we are buying a television or a truck. But we tend to not understand this. That's why Thaler called his book "Misbehaving."
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:07 PM   #29
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The behavioral finance people write about this kind of decision. It is part of "mental accounting."

If you were choosing between two televisions, identical in every way, would a $200 price difference make a difference to you? I think it probably would.

But $200 is $200, regardless of the context, so logically we humans should value it the same whether we are buying a television or a truck. But we tend to not understand this. That's why Thaler called his book "Misbehaving."

Way back in 1988 I was purchasing a brand new toyota pickup.
As we got down to the final nitty gritty on price we had come to a hundred dollar difference. I held my ground. As I was getting up to leave the exasperated salesman said to me. "Do you mean to tell me that for a hundred dollars you're not going to buy the truck." To which I replied "Do you mean to tell me for a hundred dollars you're not going to sell me that truck."
I got my hundred dollars and the truck.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:14 PM   #30
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I won't get into much of the specifics, but for those that think that you "pulled one over" on the stealership...well, that doesn't happen. Sure the numbers might look like you did a GREAT job, but in the end...the house always wins.

DW just finished purchasing a new Toyota. I won't bore you with the details, but she haggled with 9 different dealerships before finally buying a vehicle that is 300 miles away. There is quite the shortage with some cars, especially those that are fully built in Japan and the dealers KNOW THIS and use it to their advantage. She did eventually make a deal that she was fairly happy with but not without a LOT of pain and gnashing of teeth. You know what they say about a contract that indicates that it's fair? Neither party is happy.

Anyway, selling her car through Carvana was a no brainer. They came in almost $3K more than any dealership (or Carmax) would and a few dealers didn't believe the price. As a matter of fact, her first offer was bumped up by $600 when she resubmitted it (the price is good for only 7 days). I noticed that they have very little for sale and the ones they have listed were "pending sale." That process was very, VERY easy and I would highly recommend it if you don't want to deal with private party sales or getting any tax breaks for trade-ins if your state does that.

Doc fees: These days, all the dealers are charging this and some have the balls to tack a price of $600 or more for this. NONE of them would take this fee away totally, but the dealership she did buy from cut it in half.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:16 PM   #31
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Well we have had a year full of car deals and got pretty educated in the current trend.
First was an I-Pace no trade, just for fun but it was a lemon and got $$$ back.
Second we ordered a Mercedes GLC 350e for Euro Delivery, Covid and delays we cancelled it. We bought a new Ram 3500 dually as an upgrade to our 2014 because we can. This one we decided to order and trade. The order price was $14000 below MSRP, not bad. I took my trade in around before going in to receive the ordered truck. I negotiated a trade with 1 dealer who fell just short of what I wanted, so I kept my delivery at the other dealer. I got there and the manager low balled me completely.

I was ready to walk out until he came up to the trade value the other dealer offered. It gave me real world leverage, but I still did not get what I had hoped, but good enough.

I just took delivery on a new BMW X3 30e. (nice car BTW) I negotiated over the phone in March and they shut down the factory so it took a little longer. I had no trade, but got about 12% off of MSRP a fair deal with 0.9% finance 0 down. Last minute I threw in a trade before delivery. I gave our daughter the 2014 Jeep GC, and traded in her 2004 Liberty (formerly ours and it barely ran). I was so glad to not have to tow it away, they gave me a full $500 trade in, no questions.

Point is, you can mess around with the trade for convenience. In one case it took a major effort to squeeze another $5000 out the trade, the other case I didn't care about the money as much as the disposal cost avoidance.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:20 PM   #32
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Give me my Costco buying program anytime. I don't care if you can beat it by $50 or $500. To spend another hour or 6 in a car dealership, I would rather stick needles in my eyes.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:26 PM   #33
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The dealer offered me $8,500 for my trade.

I sold it in 2 days on Craigslist for $12,000. That is better than saving 5% tax on $8,500.

Try to get "private party" by selling yourself. You have time. Then go in as a cash buyer.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:27 PM   #34
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Give me my Costco buying program anytime. I don't care if you can beat it by $50 or $500. To spend another hour or 6 in a car dealership, I would rather stick needles in my eyes.
While it has been a number of years, my DW's last purchase was attempted through the Costco buying deal. There was still plenty of pain and there were issues that had to be dealt with. Was it any easier? Hell no. Hopefully it's gotten a little better.

Personally, I had a great experience when I bought my truck through CarMax. All the paperwork was essentially done before I went to the lot and total time on lot was a bit over an hour. No way I would *personally* by a brand new car, simply because I hate the process that hasn't really changed in 30+ years.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:29 PM   #35
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Give me my Costco buying program anytime. I don't care if you can beat it by $50 or $500. To spend another hour or 6 in a car dealership, I would rather stick needles in my eyes.

There is no need to spend many hours in a car dealership anymore.
Got many quotes in 2 minutes by email. No hassle and letting them compete against each other can definitely save you thousands.
Then play a little hardball at the end to save a little more.
I also told my salesman when I come in I want zero add ons or up sales from the F and I guy.
Took 5 minutes to purchase thru the F and I office this way with no hard sells

.Right before he printed out the p & s I also pulled out my $500 loyalty coupon from Subaru and they took $500 more off before signing.
Didn't want to tell them about that coupon before then so they wouldn't play games with that and change the deal.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:50 PM   #36
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There is no need to spend many hours in a car dealership anymore.
Got many quotes in 2 minutes by email. No hassle and letting them compete against each other can definitely save you thousands.
Then play a little hardball at the end to save a little more.
I also told my salesman when I come in I want zero add ons or up sales from the F and I guy.
Took 5 minutes to purchase thru the F and I office this way with no hard sells

.Right before he printed out the p & s I also pulled out my $500 loyalty coupon from Subaru and they took $500 more off before signing.
Didn't want to tell them about that coupon before then so they wouldn't play games with that and change the deal.
My comment was for the OP. Seems like they enjoy hanging around a dealer.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:51 PM   #37
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While it has been a number of years, my DW's last purchase was attempted through the Costco buying deal. There was still plenty of pain and there were issues that had to be dealt with. Was it any easier? Hell no. Hopefully it's gotten a little better.

Personally, I had a great experience when I bought my truck through CarMax. All the paperwork was essentially done before I went to the lot and total time on lot was a bit over an hour. No way I would *personally* by a brand new car, simply because I hate the process that hasn't really changed in 30+ years.
Bought my Jeep Rubicon using Costco. Easiest deal ever.
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:10 PM   #38
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Buying and selling are 2 different transactions. WHen you try to blend the 2, you run into problems.

I wont tell you what to do, Ill tell you what I did that I feel OK about. I went and test drove a vehicle, new, selected it and my options. Learned the interior color i wanted only came in 2 exterior colors. SO then I had the salesman give me a written price on that exact car. HE didnt even have one, but one was "on the truck." ok whatever. SO then i went home. found duplicates at other dealerhsips (easy on a new car, xyz trim level, abc colors). Called the dealer, asked them to put me on the phone with a salesman, told him what i wanted specifically and that i knew he had it or could get it. Told him i had XXX price from the other dealer. WHich was a lie. I told him i had a price 500 less than what i really had. TOld him to beat it and i would come write him a check today. He called me back and beat it. Text messaged my first salesman at dealer number one. Lied down again, told him i just got a price from the other dealer 1000 lower than what they actually gave me. Told him to beat it and i would come buy from him today adn write him a check. I did this operation about twice. 3 numbers from both dealerhsips, headed southward all the time. When both of them hit their stopping point i knew i had them as low as I think they could go. SO then i chose by color. Did i want blue or green. I wanted green, so went in and wrote a check and drove away. I think this whole oepration took a couple days to choose the car, I checked one out for an overnight test drive, and then about 4 hours off and on with texting and calling (i think i had one guys desk number and one guys cell number). But I took several thousand off the price. which was OK. Transaction was easy, they let me do 5k on a chasback credit card, check for the rest, no upsell on a warranty and they let me leave.
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:39 PM   #39
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I won't get into much of the specifics, but for those that think that you "pulled one over" on the stealership...well, that doesn't happen. Sure the numbers might look like you did a GREAT job, but in the end...the house always wins. ...
There is no win/lose really. A transaction price is where a willing buyer meets a willing seller. My goal is to get as close as possible to the seller's walk-away price, even though I will never know exactly how close I got. His goal is the mirror image of that. That's what negotiation is all about.

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Doc fees: These days, all the dealers are charging this and some have the balls to tack a price of $600 or more for this. NONE of them would take this fee away totally, but the dealership she did by from cut it in half.
Too bad. I don't remember the last time I paid a doc fee. I've had it happen more than once, though, that the F&I guy leaves the doc fee showing on the ticket and reduces the vehicle fee by the same amount. That's ego salve for him and CYA for when his boss reviews the deal.
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:47 PM   #40
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.... Too bad. I don't remember the last time I paid a doc fee. I've had it happen more than once, though, that the F&I guy leaves the doc fee showing on the ticket and reduces the vehicle fee by the same amount. That's ego salve for him and CYA for when his boss reviews the deal.
+1 I always object to it and tell them that doing paperwork is part of the cost of doing business, that it is super simple these days with computers and that I'm not going to pay hundreds for them to do the paperwork.... they eventually either reduce the price of the car or increase the value of the trade for the doc fee which is usually pre-printed on their form so they can claim with the unknowing that it is "required". Scam.
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