Not every kid is an engineer. What do we do about the others?

[aja8888]

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Originally Posted by ExFlyBoy5 I imagine the volatility is something a lot of folks couldn't deal with. This could also be a reason why the soon to graduate cousin is taking a job in Australia. I don't know a lot of folks in the "professional" oil world, but I do know a handful of oil field w*rkers, and that w*rk is very volatile.

Once you are "in" and get a few years under your belt, it's ok as the swings in oil prices tend to knock out the newer guys and gals. Heck, I spent 35+ continuous years in Big Oil and it's affliliates.

I know many folks who spent their entire careers in Oil & Gas. My BIL was with Shell for 40+ years and his sons are now in the business. Of course, I live in the Houston area which is a hub for this business.

It's not like the auto business.

[Retch The Grate]

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Originally Posted by jIMOh A couple points to add 1) If someone is good at MS Excel and Macros, I would think they are highly employable in a technical job. We do as much with spreadsheets as we do with databases.

Google Apps Script with Google Sheets is nice too.

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Originally Posted by jIMOh 3) I have worked for 25+ years and have not had to solve a calculus problem once. Why did I take 9 years of calculus (2 HS, 7 college)?

Argh, same, I regret the calc classes and wish I had taken prob/stat which I use elements of on every single game I design.

[OxidizedDreamer]

Tech seems to catch the spotlight these days, but the job title of "engineer" is actually not in the top 10 in the USA. In 2015, only 1.6 million people in the US held the title...that's about 3% of the workforce. There are far more people with the title "manager", and most get paid better.


If all your kid can think about is "engineer" or "not an engineer", then some digging is needed! Here are a few different approaches to "what do I do"


Feasibility study: This is a business concept, but one can apply it to one's self. There are two parts.
Part 1: Identify what you're good at. For young people, what you're good at is usually also what you like, which is a great bonus.

Part 2: Identify what things people need that "what you're good at" can help with.
Pick things at the intersection.


I've always found it difficult to figure out number two.


Another possible method:
Find out what jobs pay what, and have the most openings and from them, find something interesting to study.


The BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) publishes incredibly detailed figures for occupations. You can dig through the data...sort by highest pay, most contented employees...best future outlook....highest mobility...fastest growing...greatest unmet need...as well as demographics such as which professions have the greatest or least disparity in pay between ethnicity and gender. It's all there.


In my 40+ years of work, 30 of which were nominally engineering, and in my fascination with the economy and how it impacts people's lives, these are things I've observed over and over that were true 40 years ago and true today:


1) Basic economics works reasonably well for publicly-traded and other for-profit companies: The harder it is to find employees, the more the job pays.
2) Pure economics can get altered by two factors, which operate in opposition: Government jobs and unionized jobs. For the same type of work, government paychecks are smaller. For the same type of work, union jobs pay more, but have bigger barriers for advancement.
3) The highest paying jobs are in the fastest-growing and newest sectors. This became abundantly clear recently when economist dissected "what do the 1% do to get to 1%?" and found that 95% of them were in fields that didn't exist or were vastly different only 10 years ago - basically, tech and the tech supporting medicine.
4) Older professions don't tend to pay well - the longer a given job has been done, the more the sector has been able to economize and strive for efficiency, and put in safeguards that allow even sloppy employees to work out well.


Examples: Elder care. It's growing...but it's work that doesn't suit everybody, rather demanding. Because it's growing it should pay well, and some of the roles, such as nursing, are unionized. However, it is government work, generally paid by Medicare and it's a very old profession, so it really doesn't pay well. It's stable work, it'll always be there, but there's little growth path and entry level pay is poor.


Medical development pays very well - it's growing very fast, it's not government money and it needs people who are willing to work outside their defined role. For instance, as an engineer developing magnetic resonance imaging, I had to learn and work in the field of neurology in order to design products correctly. (just an example)


Tech pays well because it's growing and people around the world are addicted to tech. Large tech companies may have 10% of the employees engineers - the rest are not. Purchasing agents, Human Resource professionals, marketing, manufacturing, budget/accounting - all of these pay well within the tech sector.


I would expect alternative energy to be a good one now - and again, one needn't be an engineer to contribute - but some of it is gov't paid so you have to get in the "right" sector.


Resistance to out-sourcing is worth considering too, but there's still a catch. For instance, oil changes on cars will always be an in-person job. But there's less and less NEED for this work! Modern gasoline-powered cars go longer without oil changes (mine goes 20,000 miles) and sales of fuel-powered cars are in decline, being taken over by electric.


There are various kinds of surveys your offspring can take that may help identify career paths.

[dirtbiker]

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Originally Posted by ExFlyBoy5 You have listed your reasons, but I know plenty of folks that have been wildly successful in life without the "burden" of four years of college. My Dad is probably the best example as he was the smartest man I have ever had the privilege to meet and he never achieved a more formal education than a GED. In my experience, the formal technical training I received as an enlisted man in the Air Force was much more challenging than ANY college course I ever took. And law school? Yeah, there was nothing really hard about for me. For others? Well, as long as they can read a whole bunch of fairly boring stuff without falling asleep it probably isn't too challenging, either.

I also know plenty of people who have been extremely financially successful without college, such as my neighbor who owns a construction company he built himself from the ground up. I obviously am not privy to his books, but his house is easily 3 times as large as mine and he has, I think, about half a dozen vacation homes, and spends most of his time hopping from one house to the next (not retired, but not really working). I doubt I'll ever be close to as financially successful as he appears to be, despite him having a HS degree and between my wife and I 3 doctorate degrees.

However, on average, people with degrees make more money. There are going to be outliers in every category, but having an education makes you statistically more likely to do well. For every story of the electrician or plumber who sold his business for millions and retired early, there are dozens of stories of hardworking blue collar workers doing okay at best. There's nothing wrong with that, but touting trades as being equal to college education in terms of average earning potential is not really accurate if you look at average incomes.

And BTW, I am not anti-trade school/blue collar. As I said, my oldest son is in vo-tech for welding right now, and we support him doing what he's good at and is passionate about. I'm just being honest with what reality says about education vs. income, all other factors aside.

And yeah, military training is far different than most any type of education you'll get on the civilian side. I've got 19 years and counting in the Army National Guard. 10 years enlisted and 9 commissioned, three overseas deployments, and a fourth coming up this year. Man am I ready to be a full civilian again.

[Big_Hitter]

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Originally Posted by dirtbiker However, on average, people with degrees make more money.

yep

[Omega]

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Originally Posted by Cobra9777 We expected our kids to go to college. But we never placed any expectations WRT a "profitable major." Nor was there any expectation that they actually work in the field they majored in. We just don't think the education process stops in the 12th grade. Regardless of major, college is where you really learn to write effectively, think independently, creatively solve problems that have no clear answer, etc. We told them to major in whatever interested them intellectually. Career stuff can be figured out later.

This! My daughter was accepted into the Engineering program at our state school but changed her mind before she even started. They let her switch to the business school which she attended for 1 semester and HATED it.

She ended up with a BA in English and 2 minors. English was always her strength (she won the English award in HS), but she felt compelled at first to major in something that she thought would get her a high paying job right after graduation.

She did get a great job that she loves at a marketing company, writing and editing. I am so happy for her and couldn't be more proud.

How the heck are 17 year old kids supposed to know what career they want anyway??

[snowboarder]

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Originally Posted by Omega How the heck are 17 year old kids supposed to know what career they want anyway??

True, but given their track record in High School they should now what they hate and like. If they hated Math, Physics, Science then forget Engineering and hard sciences.

[pjigar]

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Originally Posted by dirtbiker My kids know that their college is covered for the in-state state university system schools. If they want to go to an expensive private school or out of state to one of the big universities, it's on them to get a scholarship or take out loans (God I hope they don't go this route).

Same here.

[pjigar]

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Originally Posted by sengsational Ain't THAT the truth. And the more you accept and find the joy in what you have (as opposed to compare), the happier you'll be.

Amen.

[brett]

Many people entering the workforce today will change careers two or three times. Mine is over but I certainly made several changes, two of them being quite significant for the times.

Many employers look for a degree and to the willingness and ability of a person to learn the business.

My SIL once asked my why on earth my employer preferred a college/post secondary degree when hiring an office assistant. The answer was easy. We had several who were hired as such but moved up the ranks to become managers and directors. When we hired we invested. We tried to invest in good candidates that would grow with the company. Many did-through initiative and a strong work ethic.

I think there is piles of opportunity out there over and above engineering. Neither of mine children graduated from engineering. They are both doing well in academia and in private enterprise.

I think that the basics still apply. Get some post secondary education or a skill, work hard, work smart, take advantage of the opportunities that come along, and don't be afraid to take some risk or change paths.

[jIMOh]

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Originally Posted by stephenson To jIMOh's comment - the engineering field I just departed required calculus daily - almost as a thought process - then applied via various low end tools and then high end tool development that was sometimes part of the requirement to even make the device work - then the proof tools - then the Failure Review Board tools and models ... I would strongly recommend carrying on the tradition of maximizing math skills for engineers. We actually had mentorship programs where the PhDs in math worked with the regular folks to get them thinking the right way ... increasing involved and integrated efforts.

I think Math and science is overblown to what the technical world needs.
First, let me say most engineers are way smarter than me at something.
I see a need for logical people to do quasi-technical work. Organizing data, aligning processes, finding root causes of problems, identifying customer needs from both customer and technical level.

None of those skills will be learned in a calculus, physics or chemistry class.

[fasteddie911]

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Originally Posted by pjigar 10-15 years ago, I felt that I learned lot of unnecessary subjects and spent way too much time on crazy projects that had no real use. As I progressed through my career, over last couple of decades, I realized that the perspectives and the outlooks those subjects/activities provided came in very handy. They also gave me confidence to dive into unfamiliar work areas and succeed because that's essentially what I did when I was in college. In short, all the learning I did through the college taught me that I can learn and excel at anything. Side story: I got acquainted with a peer of my ex-boss and talked about all kinds of new projects I did, on and off work. He joined a new company few years back. He hired me last year mainly because he knows I can learn and excel anything. He actually told me the reason he hired me.

I'm not sure what courses you took, your major or career. But from what you described of your experience, I'm still not sure I'll appreciate some of the classes I took for my degree. English classes, language, film history, philosophy, etc. Granted they were gen. ed. requirements that I was free to choose and maybe I could've chosen something more useful but I also wanted an easy A, or sometimes there were no classes that were interesting or useful, or ultimately I didn't know what would be useful.

In any case, what I was referring to in regards to the college experience being over-rated were things like socializing, intellectualizing, small vs large schools, amenities, clubs, etc., not so much the actual classroom material.

[dg001]

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Originally Posted by OxidizedDreamer 1) Basic economics works reasonably well for publicly-traded and other for-profit companies: The harder it is to find employees, the more the job pays.

This! Loved your post!


To the OP - I think the focus of advice and support to young people should be the balance of finding something that would pay off in terms of the "blood, sweat and money" they put into a college degree, and provide a sense of accomplishment of having done something worth doing.

There are many many professions that pay well, are stable and provide both happiness and a good paycheck. To think only (or even that) engineering and medicine provides this is silly - and was probably put forward by people who have no clue what either of those professions entail and are trying to find an "easy formula".

The formula is not to teach kids to be math and science whizzes - its to teach them to work hard and think and "get it". After that, they can figure out stuff on their own!

[foxfirev5]

Nice subject. There certainly is no magical solution. While I got a degree there certainly is no substitute for being a hustler. Make the most of all your opportunities. Every day is a fresh start. My biggest gains have occurred on less than .001% of my days on this planet.