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03-08-2011, 12:29 PM
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#101
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 11,327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies
Agree!
The biggest difference it the physical paradigm, which doesn't apply to e-books.
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Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.
__________________
Idleness is fatal only to the mediocre -- Albert Camus
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03-08-2011, 12:44 PM
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#102
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.
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Not to mention that a sufficiently motivated cheat could scan all the pages of a copyrighted hardcopy and distribute the scanned images all over the place.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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03-08-2011, 12:48 PM
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#103
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gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Wasn't meant to be negative, only honestly descriptive. I have often seen posts from people who simply appear to reject the laws of supply/demand and it is hard to for me to communicate with them. The whole idea of what is fair, or that a business is 'greedy' is foreign to me. In a free market, a business cannot be any more 'greedy' than what the market will bear. And they won't be any less 'greedy' either. The 'greediest' thing they can possibly do is lower prices to maximize the balance between profit and sales. And that is exactly what we want. Without that, we won't get the products we want at the best prices.
Are the buyers 'greedy' or unfair for wanting the product at a lower price?
Sorry if my wording offended anyone, I'm just trying to get this point across.
-ERD50
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Crazy capitalist rant...
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03-08-2011, 12:49 PM
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#104
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunsetSail
So I think you are referring to vertical price fixing (i.e., price fixing between a manufacturer and a retailer) which may be illegal if other factors are present but the practice is not illegal per se.
Horizontal price fixing (between competitors) is illegal per se. So it is possible for a manufacturer to set a price to a retailer, albeit under somewhat narrow circumstances.
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SunsetSail, you and I are not in agreement on this but I suspect we are also talking about different things. Because they really aren't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to continue. Not agreeing to disagree, more like let's talk about this when it is more relevant to the topic. Cheers.
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03-08-2011, 01:10 PM
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#105
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gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
Not to mention that a sufficiently motivated cheat could scan all the pages of a copyrighted hardcopy and distribute the scanned images all over the place.
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Hmmm..., wonder which one is easier and would go farther, faster. That darned physical paradigm loses again.
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03-08-2011, 01:11 PM
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#106
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Please explain - it seemed clear to me from the link I provided that it is allowed. What am I missing?
As a practical matter - can you find a range of prices on brand new iPads of a specific model (not a refurb, or other bundle)?
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If iPads are priced the same at all retail outlets that means they are in high demand, Apple has a successful product and manages its distribution network carefully and successfully, and the dealers are making nice profits as well. This is no indication of price fixing.
I do not understand your rant on people who reject supply and demand and have no idea why it was directed at me. You brought it. You raised the pricing issue as well. I think you are arguing against yourself and using me as a foil.
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03-08-2011, 01:11 PM
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#107
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gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB
SunsetSail, you and I are not in agreement on this but I suspect we are also talking about different things. Because they really aren't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to continue. Not agreeing to disagree, more like let's talk about this when it is more relevant to the topic. Cheers.
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Threadjack Averted!
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03-08-2011, 01:16 PM
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#108
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies
Hmmm..., wonder which one is easier and would go farther, faster. That darned physical paradigm loses again.
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They are quite different. The one Ziggy describes has been around forever. Nothing new here, and if caught would be subject to copyright violation. Lawsuit by the content owner. OTOH, what donheff describes is a violation of DCMA. A criminal violation. Here we have jail time in addition to fines - and still copyright violation as well.
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03-08-2011, 01:28 PM
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#109
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,880
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You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.
I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
__________________
Al
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03-08-2011, 01:34 PM
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#110
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
Netflix works awfully good and at $10/month, I wonder why libraries need to stock recent DVD releases. I see no reason that Amazon or somebody can't come up with a ebook of the month club where you can spend $10-20 or so a month, and check out so many books a month like Netflix. Especially for rural areas, I wonder if we couldn't save money by giving everybody a kid an ebook reader and ebook of the month club account. Letting adults sign up for the program and shut down the libraries.
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If the print industry is anything like the music industry, they just don't get the digital world.
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03-08-2011, 01:52 PM
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#111
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.
I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
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OH silly T Al.... they have been calling for the demise of paper money for a long time... and we use more of it today than ever...
They have been calling for the demise of paper checks for a long time... and we might be using more today than ever... (not sure on this though)...
I predict that we will have printed books long after I am dead... and I have a ways to go (hopefully)...
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03-08-2011, 01:56 PM
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#112
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.
I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
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I'll take that bet - and even give odds.
It does seem hard for libraries - although they may be facing other, greater challenges soon. Small community suburban libraries seem most threatened.
This is an epic challenge between the digital era and LBYM. Al, so many are looking to you for leadership and guidance. This is your moment. Are you ready to face this challenge and lead us along the path of the righteous?
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03-08-2011, 02:10 PM
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#113
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
They have been calling for the demise of paper checks for a long time... and we might be using more today than ever... (not sure on this though)...
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No, check volume has been on a steady decline for years after reaching a peak in the US of more than 50 billion per year in the mid 90's. Last numbers I saw were from 2006 when usage (clearing) was down to 36 billion. They are dying a slow death and will continue to be around for many more years - just like paper books.
__________________
Numbers is hard
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03-08-2011, 02:16 PM
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#114
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.
I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
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That would be sad, but it's not like libraries would be alone with respect to industries and jobs killed by technology.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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03-08-2011, 02:53 PM
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#115
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies
Simple ( illegal? for "private use"?) pdf conversion. Commercial software, print/scan, or even captured screenshots.The electronic version of xeroxing that textbook, but a lot cheaper, less cumbersome, and a heck of a lot quicker. The potential for abuse is exponentially greater than with physical printed matter, it's just too easy... while the theorists will decry "but, but... that's illegal" it is reality to those dependent on sales for revenue and income.
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(a) but it is illegal
(b) textbook publishing is such a huge cash cow that the publishers go after this in a heartbeat. The big red flag is when quantities of a book that's been adopted for a class (whether ebook or traditional textbook) aren't selling. Faculty and publishers work together anyway (because the faculty doesn't care what a book costs, they don't pay for them, publishers supply gratis tons of supplementary pedagogical materials to them, and many faculty members contribute the content to the textbooks, workbooks, test banks, etc., so have a vested interest in sales)--quite doubtful faculty is going to protect students when a publisher comes after them. From one of your state's school: Copyright Guide - Copyright & Digital Course Content | The University of Arizona University Libraries
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
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03-08-2011, 03:00 PM
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#116
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
That would be sad, but it's not like libraries would be alone with respect to industries and jobs killed by technology.
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LIbraries are so adaptable, they will survive long past the demise of traditional books. This new library opened in a Chicago suburb this week: Library of the future opens in Bolingbrook - chicagotribune.com
Quote:
The shiny, LED-lit future of libraries opened Monday in Bolingbrook, promising to be a technology blueprint for others as iPads, Kindles and Nooks replace dusty old paperbacks.
Crowds of curious and eager patrons visited the three-story, $39.5 million building featuring flat-screen TVs, computer terminals, self-checkout stations, an automated book sorter and a cafe.
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[But, good news!} The new library comes with a dedicated reading room for the more traditional library user.
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__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
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03-08-2011, 03:03 PM
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#117
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever
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The function may well continue. The jobs for human labor, like in so many other places, will not. Note the words like "automated" and "self-checkout." These are just more socially acceptable ways of saying "stuff that doesn't employ anyone."
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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03-08-2011, 03:36 PM
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#118
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 11,327
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Kevin Kelly is predicting eBooks will drop to $.99 each on average in 5 years. If that is the case I will start buying them and not worry about the library.
__________________
Idleness is fatal only to the mediocre -- Albert Camus
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03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
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#119
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Kevin Kelly is predicting eBooks will drop to $.99 each on average in 5 years. If that is the case I will start buying them and not worry about the library.
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I think that was also the theory behind iTunes -- that at low enough price per track, many people won't bother to look for someone to pirate a copy for them.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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03-11-2011, 01:10 PM
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#120
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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This article discusses three online "clubs" (sites) that allow sharing of ebooks. This model cuts libraries out of the picture altogether.
Quote:
In the past few months, online clubs with such names as BookLending.com and Lendle.me have proliferated. The sites, some of which have gathered thousands of users, allow strangers to borrow and lend e-books for Amazon.com Inc.'s Kindle and Barnes & Noble Inc.'s Nook free.
The sites are the latest twist in the industry of e-books, which has disrupted the traditional book-publishing industry and changed that business's economics. Public libraries can't lend e-books in the Kindle format, though they can for other e-reading devices.
Previously, Kindle and Nook readers were largely limited to sharing e-books with friends because two users needed to know each other's email address to initiate a loan. The new sites give e-book readers access to a larger network of people and a larger selection of books.
The lending sites have drawbacks. One is limited selection. Most major book publishers haven't made their e-books lendable, and the books can be lent only once and for only 14 days. That means that with every successful loan, the sites' available library shrinks unless new users with books to lend join.
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. . . The sites' creators said they decided to launch the services after Amazon, following Barnes & Noble's lead, introduced the ability to lend Kindle e-books in late December. Analysts estimate that Kindle has about two-thirds of the U.S. market for e-books. . . .
Lending on the different sites is similar. Users request the title they want to borrow. If would-be lenders approve the loan of, for example, a Kindle book, they are directed to an Amazon page to complete the swap. The borrower gets the book for 14 days, after which it disappears from the borrower's library and the lender gets it back.
BookLending and Lendle users can swap only Kindle titles, while eBook Fling will allow Kindle and Nook borrowing.
All three lending sites are free to users. But if books aren't available for borrowing, the sites refer users to Amazon, and they make a commission if users buy a book there.
The three sites offer incentives for users to make their books available for lending. Lendle requires users to make at least one book available for loan before starting to borrow, and the site has an algorithm that improves users' chances of getting a book they want if they lend frequently. BookLending has a similar algorithm, though it has no requirement to make books available for loan first.
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If this takes off, users will be willing to pay more for a "lendable" version of a Nook or Kindle book, since they can offer it up to the lending site to be loaned out, and garner more points for the next time they want to borrow a book.
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