Publisher puts new limits on library e-books

[donheff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westernskies Agree! The biggest difference it the physical paradigm, which doesn't apply to e-books.

Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.

Not to mention that a sufficiently motivated cheat could scan all the pages of a copyrighted hardcopy and distribute the scanned images all over the place.

[Westernskies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Wasn't meant to be negative, only honestly descriptive. I have often seen posts from people who simply appear to reject the laws of supply/demand and it is hard to for me to communicate with them. The whole idea of what is fair, or that a business is 'greedy' is foreign to me. In a free market, a business cannot be any more 'greedy' than what the market will bear. And they won't be any less 'greedy' either. The 'greediest' thing they can possibly do is lower prices to maximize the balance between profit and sales. And that is exactly what we want. Without that, we won't get the products we want at the best prices. Are the buyers 'greedy' or unfair for wanting the product at a lower price? Sorry if my wording offended anyone, I'm just trying to get this point across. -ERD50

Crazy capitalist rant...

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunsetSail So I think you are referring to vertical price fixing (i.e., price fixing between a manufacturer and a retailer) which may be illegal if other factors are present but the practice is not illegal per se. Horizontal price fixing (between competitors) is illegal per se. So it is possible for a manufacturer to set a price to a retailer, albeit under somewhat narrow circumstances.

SunsetSail, you and I are not in agreement on this but I suspect we are also talking about different things. Because they really aren't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to continue. Not agreeing to disagree, more like let's talk about this when it is more relevant to the topic. Cheers.

[Westernskies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy29 Not to mention that a sufficiently motivated cheat could scan all the pages of a copyrighted hardcopy and distribute the scanned images all over the place.

Hmmm..., wonder which one is easier and would go farther, faster. That darned physical paradigm loses again.

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Please explain - it seemed clear to me from the link I provided that it is allowed. What am I missing? As a practical matter - can you find a range of prices on brand new iPads of a specific model (not a refurb, or other bundle)?

If iPads are priced the same at all retail outlets that means they are in high demand, Apple has a successful product and manages its distribution network carefully and successfully, and the dealers are making nice profits as well. This is no indication of price fixing.

I do not understand your rant on people who reject supply and demand and have no idea why it was directed at me. You brought it. You raised the pricing issue as well. I think you are arguing against yourself and using me as a foil.

[Westernskies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB SunsetSail, you and I are not in agreement on this but I suspect we are also talking about different things. Because they really aren't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to continue. Not agreeing to disagree, more like let's talk about this when it is more relevant to the topic. Cheers.

Threadjack Averted!

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westernskies Hmmm..., wonder which one is easier and would go farther, faster. That darned physical paradigm loses again.

They are quite different. The one Ziggy describes has been around forever. Nothing new here, and if caught would be subject to copyright violation. Lawsuit by the content owner. OTOH, what donheff describes is a violation of DCMA. A criminal violation. Here we have jail time in addition to fines - and still copyright violation as well.

[TromboneAl]

You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.

I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.

[walkinwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp Netflix works awfully good and at $10/month, I wonder why libraries need to stock recent DVD releases. I see no reason that Amazon or somebody can't come up with a ebook of the month club where you can spend $10-20 or so a month, and check out so many books a month like Netflix. Especially for rural areas, I wonder if we couldn't save money by giving everybody a kid an ebook reader and ebook of the month club account. Letting adults sign up for the program and shut down the libraries.

If the print industry is anything like the music industry, they just don't get the digital world.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges. I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.

OH silly T Al.... they have been calling for the demise of paper money for a long time... and we use more of it today than ever...

They have been calling for the demise of paper checks for a long time... and we might be using more today than ever... (not sure on this though)...


I predict that we will have printed books long after I am dead... and I have a ways to go (hopefully)...

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges. I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.

I'll take that bet - and even give odds.

It does seem hard for libraries - although they may be facing other, greater challenges soon. Small community suburban libraries seem most threatened.

This is an epic challenge between the digital era and LBYM. Al, so many are looking to you for leadership and guidance. This is your moment. Are you ready to face this challenge and lead us along the path of the righteous?

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud They have been calling for the demise of paper checks for a long time... and we might be using more today than ever... (not sure on this though)...

No, check volume has been on a steady decline for years after reaching a peak in the US of more than 50 billion per year in the mid 90's. Last numbers I saw were from 2006 when usage (clearing) was down to 36 billion. They are dying a slow death and will continue to be around for many more years - just like paper books.

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges. I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.

That would be sad, but it's not like libraries would be alone with respect to industries and jobs killed by technology.

[Bestwifeever]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westernskies Simple ( illegal? for "private use"?) pdf conversion. Commercial software, print/scan, or even captured screenshots.The electronic version of xeroxing that textbook, but a lot cheaper, less cumbersome, and a heck of a lot quicker. The potential for abuse is exponentially greater than with physical printed matter, it's just too easy... while the theorists will decry "but, but... that's illegal" it is reality to those dependent on sales for revenue and income.

(a) but it is illegal

(b) textbook publishing is such a huge cash cow that the publishers go after this in a heartbeat. The big red flag is when quantities of a book that's been adopted for a class (whether ebook or traditional textbook) aren't selling. Faculty and publishers work together anyway (because the faculty doesn't care what a book costs, they don't pay for them, publishers supply gratis tons of supplementary pedagogical materials to them, and many faculty members contribute the content to the textbooks, workbooks, test banks, etc., so have a vested interest in sales)--quite doubtful faculty is going to protect students when a publisher comes after them. From one of your state's school: Copyright Guide - Copyright & Digital Course Content | The University of Arizona University Libraries

[Bestwifeever]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy29 That would be sad, but it's not like libraries would be alone with respect to industries and jobs killed by technology.

LIbraries are so adaptable, they will survive long past the demise of traditional books. This new library opened in a Chicago suburb this week: Library of the future opens in Bolingbrook - chicagotribune.com

Quote:

The shiny, LED-lit future of libraries opened Monday in Bolingbrook, promising to be a technology blueprint for others as iPads, Kindles and Nooks replace dusty old paperbacks. Crowds of curious and eager patrons visited the three-story, $39.5 million building featuring flat-screen TVs, computer terminals, self-checkout stations, an automated book sorter and a cafe. .... [But, good news!} The new library comes with a dedicated reading room for the more traditional library user.

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bestwifeever LIbraries are so adaptable, they will survive long past the demise of traditional books. This new library opened in a Chicago suburb this week: Library of the future opens in Bolingbrook - chicagotribune.com

The function may well continue. The jobs for human labor, like in so many other places, will not. Note the words like "automated" and "self-checkout." These are just more socially acceptable ways of saying "stuff that doesn't employ anyone."

[donheff]

Kevin Kelly is predicting eBooks will drop to $.99 each on average in 5 years. If that is the case I will start buying them and not worry about the library.

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff Kevin Kelly is predicting eBooks will drop to $.99 each on average in 5 years. If that is the case I will start buying them and not worry about the library.

I think that was also the theory behind iTunes -- that at low enough price per track, many people won't bother to look for someone to pirate a copy for them.

[samclem]

This article discusses three online "clubs" (sites) that allow sharing of ebooks. This model cuts libraries out of the picture altogether.

Quote:

In the past few months, online clubs with such names as BookLending.com and Lendle.me have proliferated. The sites, some of which have gathered thousands of users, allow strangers to borrow and lend e-books for Amazon.com Inc.'s Kindle and Barnes & Noble Inc.'s Nook free. The sites are the latest twist in the industry of e-books, which has disrupted the traditional book-publishing industry and changed that business's economics. Public libraries can't lend e-books in the Kindle format, though they can for other e-reading devices. Previously, Kindle and Nook readers were largely limited to sharing e-books with friends because two users needed to know each other's email address to initiate a loan. The new sites give e-book readers access to a larger network of people and a larger selection of books. The lending sites have drawbacks. One is limited selection. Most major book publishers haven't made their e-books lendable, and the books can be lent only once and for only 14 days. That means that with every successful loan, the sites' available library shrinks unless new users with books to lend join. . . . . . . The sites' creators said they decided to launch the services after Amazon, following Barnes & Noble's lead, introduced the ability to lend Kindle e-books in late December. Analysts estimate that Kindle has about two-thirds of the U.S. market for e-books. . . . Lending on the different sites is similar. Users request the title they want to borrow. If would-be lenders approve the loan of, for example, a Kindle book, they are directed to an Amazon page to complete the swap. The borrower gets the book for 14 days, after which it disappears from the borrower's library and the lender gets it back. BookLending and Lendle users can swap only Kindle titles, while eBook Fling will allow Kindle and Nook borrowing. All three lending sites are free to users. But if books aren't available for borrowing, the sites refer users to Amazon, and they make a commission if users buy a book there. The three sites offer incentives for users to make their books available for lending. Lendle requires users to make at least one book available for loan before starting to borrow, and the site has an algorithm that improves users' chances of getting a book they want if they lend frequently. BookLending has a similar algorithm, though it has no requirement to make books available for loan first.

If this takes off, users will be willing to pay more for a "lendable" version of a Nook or Kindle book, since they can offer it up to the lending site to be loaned out, and garner more points for the next time they want to borrow a book.