Red Wines and Sugar Content - follow up

[ERD50]

I'm starting a new thread on this, as we got to drifting in another thread where Midpack was posting about a Cabernet he liked. It is somewhat unusual in being Bourbon-Barrel-Aged. Interesting. One of the reviews mentioned the sugar content at 4mg/L. I prefer my reds dry (I've read these are typically ~ 2~3 mg/L), but was curious. So I tried an experiment.

I'll try copying the relevant posts from the other threads, then reply to Winemaker's comments.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

Here's my post on my experiment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Following up on my earlier post. As it turns out, DW planned a beef roast for tonight's dinner, and we enjoy a dry red wine with that. So I had an opportunity to try my "sugar dosing experiment", and more importantly, I actually did it! I should stress, I'm not all that educated in the world of wine. I like dry reds, or a Savingnon Blanc with salmon (the acidity seems a nice contrast to the fat). Don't drink sweet wines unless offered as a dessert wine. I'm much better in distinguishing qualities in beer (which I also home-brew). The results were very surprising to me, I'd be curious to hear comments from poster Winemaker. Here's how it went. I opened a bottle of my home-made wine, from Chilean Cabernet juice, Spring 2018 harvest (more details below if you care). This also had a medium toast oak strip added for 3 months prior to bottling. I ferment these dry, but don't do any residual sugar testing, but I assume they are quite dry. I pulled 100 mL of this wine to a separate glass (after aerating the whole bottle), and added sugar at the rate of 3 mg/L (more details below if you care), to get closer to the 4 mg/L stated sugar content of the wine in the OP. Before I compared wines, I added that amount to 100 mL of RO water. I could not detect any sweetness. I doubled the concentration, and then I felt I could detect it, barely. So I thought no way am I going to detect this with the fairly bold flavors of my Chilean Cab. I almost went straight to the double concentration, but took it in steps. I was shocked. I could immediately taste the difference of the added 3gm/L in my wine. DW could tell it, and was a little miffed at me for "wasting" 100 mL of our wine for dinner. Now, this wasn't sweet like a dessert wine, and I could see how some people might just see that as "boosting" the flavors that are there (the way salt enhances food w/o changing the basic flavor?). But to me, it really did come across as sweeter than I want with a wine to go with roast beef. This is obviously all subjective (but I'm certain I could objectively pick out the sweetened wine in a blind tasting), but that sweetness is just not what I'm looking for. I was so surprised, that I repeated the water test, just to make sure I didn't mix up the dosing somehow. DW had the same feelings on both the dosed water (couldn't detect the sugar) and the dosed wine, but more extreme on the wine. So my question to Winemaker (or other experienced wine tasters): Does the sugar interact with other components of the wine to make it more noticeable than it was with RO water? That is what both DW and I theorized. OK, I've gone this far, so I guess I'll add - I don't get the defensive tone of some of the posts in this thread (or were some deleted?). If the OP likes a Bourbon-barrel-aged Cab, then he likes it, whether it costs $3, $10 or $100. It's all good. I think what turned it a bit is the comparison to other reds. It's just different, if you like it you like it, but it's a bit silly to compare. I like some Bourbon-barrel-aged beers, but I don't compare them to their non-barrel aged cousins. They are just different, I enjoy each for what they are. Is that OK? Added background info if you care: So for reference, I won't hold up my home made wine as any great shakes, but I have got positive comments from the wine makers in my beer club, and from some wine making club members. When we've tried them side-by-side with our typical $10~$12 bottles of wines, we've sometimes felt my home made was far superior to the commercial wine, and other times felt the commercial was better, more complex. So that's kind of a toss up. The Chilean Cab we enjoyed tonight was bulk aged for a year (with the oak strip added the last 3 months), and bottled about a year ago. It was fermented from juice that our wine club has shipped up from Chile in the Spring, (they bring in California juice in the fall). I didn't add any skins/stems, so however they pressed it is what I got. I add nutrient at the start and about 2/3rd of the way through initial fermentation, to help assure it ferments out dry. For the dosing - to try to be more accurate, I dissolved a 10x weight of sugar with an equal amount of the sample wine (6 grams each), measured the volume, and dosed adjusting for the volume ratios with a 1 mL syringe, so I'm sure I got this pretty accurate. -ERD50

[ERD50]

And here's Winemaker's comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker Thanks for your experiment, ERD50. As a side note, did you keep any of your records of you Chilean Cab when you made it? Especially the final specific gravity/brix? Any how, a couple of things come to mind. You say you could not taste sweetness in the RO water? That is good, and I'm glad that you used RO water and not tap water. That eliminates any minerals, or extra material that might be found in water, and their interactions. Could you perceive an aroma in the sugar water? Could you perceive an aroma if you preformed the same with sweet/unsweetened tea or coffee? I digress. I know that additions of sugar do react with the phenols, thiols, to make it taste fruitier, I guess it's a matter if you can taste it. But of course, after adding the sugar, you had to stir up your mixture, which does make a BIG difference. Remember my posts of long ago on other wine topics, about taking a bottle of wine, and separating different portions. Sample A straight from the bottle, B shaken in a cocktail shaker, C in a blender. All three will taste different to most people. Also, Chilean grapes are considered a cold growing region, so their going to be a little "greener" or acidic, Checking your records you may find your Brix was about 22, and your pH about 3.2-3.3. Reds should be 3.4-3.6. Titratable acid should be 5-6gms/liter. Adding a small amount of sugar to your wine glass, will affect a lower pH wine, just as adding sugar to lemonade. Also, your choice of bucket juice does make a difference also. Grapes, regardless of color or variety, get their flavor from the skins, because that's where the "nummies" are. If a winemaker uses whole crushed red grapes, he may coldsoak them a few days, and ferment with the skins, maximizing flavor and color. When using juice buckets, the juice is hot pressed, as to extract the "nummies" quicker but not thoroughly. I use bucket juice for some whites, as they are a little more delicate, and I can really screw up some white grapes if conditions are not perfect. That being said though, you would get maybe a BIGGER impact on wine from grapes instead of wine from juice, because there's more "nummies". It also the reason a $10 wine may or may not taste like a $30 bottle of wine. A farmer may sell his grapes to a wholesaler, who may not have an immediate sale, so they may have to hotpress it, store it, or transport it before it spoils, to a winery that doesn't grow its own grapes. I can look online in my newsletters, and buy bulk juice right now, and I know there's no one in the USA that's harvesting grapes right now. So yes, the sugar does react with the components in the wine more ways than one. Also, may I suggest a Pinot Noir with your salmon, regardless of how you prepare it? DW and I love Sauv Blanc, but enjoy PN more with salmon, you will not be disappointed!

[Out-to-Lunch]

I wouldn't be surprised if the interaction with the acidity is the dominant effect. I am suggesting taking two water samples, but add enough tartaric acid (if you have it) to roughly equal wine. Then add the same amount of sugar to each, and see if you can tell the difference.

I said to make it "roughly equal to wine," but frankly I am not sure if you should match the TA (titratable acidity) of wine (~6-7 g/l) or try to match the pH. With plain water there won't be much buffering of the pH... not sure how that would play out.

I see now that @winemaker alluded briefly to acidity, but I think this is going to be a far more important component than tap vs. RO, stirred vs. still, phenols, etc.

[ERD50]

And my reply:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker Thanks for your experiment, ERD50. As a side note, did you keep any of your records of you Chilean Cab when you made it? Especially the final specific gravity/brix? ... I know that additions of sugar do react with the phenols, thiols, to make it taste fruitier, I guess it's a matter if you can taste it. But of course, after adding the sugar, you had to stir up your mixture, which does make a BIG difference. Remember my posts of long ago on other wine topics, about taking a bottle of wine, and separating different portions. Sample A straight from the bottle, B shaken in a cocktail shaker, C in a blender. All three will taste different to most people. Also, Chilean grapes are considered a cold growing region, so their going to be a little "greener" or acidic, Checking your records you may find your Brix was about 22, and your pH about 3.2-3.3. Reds should be 3.4-3.6. Titratable acid should be 5-6gms/liter. Adding a small amount of sugar to your wine glass, will affect a lower pH wine, just as adding sugar to lemonade. ...

I'm a pretty casual/seat-of-the-pants wine maker. I've been brewing beer for several decades, and am familiar with slight differences in profile of many different styles. I've been attending monthly meeting for years, and we sample many styles, home-brew and commercial each meeting, usually a BJCP or two in attendance, and I've helped judge comps when we were short BJCP judges. So I know my way around the styles, defects, and variations in flavors in beer.

With wine, I'm more "I know what I like". Sure, I have general impressions of dry/sweet, acid, tannin, fruitiness,, etc, but I'm not too good at expressing those. And have only been making wine for a few years, and keep it simple. At least with the CA juice, other wine club/local supply store contracted directly with the vineyard, so the juice and grapes (shipped at the same time), were fresh (and delayed this year due to weather). But I really can't vouch for the quality. Not sure how they make the contacts with the Chilean sources.

So with that said, I measured 1.095 initially (Wyeast 4946 @ 72F, yeast nutrient added at start and when fermentation slowed a bit, bentonite added at start). I added 2 ounces Tartaric Acid to get Total Acidity to the 6~7 gm/L range recommended for reds. I don't have a pH meter, so I'm going by the color change with a titration kit, and I really don't trust myself, but it seems to work OK. After a 1 month primary, I racked to a carboy, de-gassed and measured 0.995. I didn't make any further measurements, but I'm pretty sure it was done at that point?

Racked/degassed again a few months later, adding 1/8th tsp Potassium metabisulfite ( again, I don't have the equipment to measure the residual levels and other components to know how much to add - but this has been working for me). Later I added a medium toast oak strip, and ended up leaving that for ~ 5 months. Then racked/degassed for bottling, adding another 1/8th tsp Potassium metabisulfite. By this time, I had purchased a vacuum transfer/de-gassing system, so degassed with that. Now I can transfer w/o needing to lift full 6 gallon carboys, which was scary, especially with my back problems.

So as you see, pretty basic - no skins/stems, nothing fancy. When DW and I have compared with the typical wines we would buy ($10 range), we sometimes felt my home made was much better, other times we felt the commercial was better with more complexity. If anything, I'd say my wines are a bit 'fruity', though they've been aging well, and seem more 'rounded' after a year or two in the bottle. I've been bulk aging everything in the carboy for a year now. Making a batch each spring and fall, and bottling right before then to free up the carboy, with one spare for transferring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker Any how, a couple of things come to mind. You say you could not taste sweetness in the RO water? That is good, and I'm glad that you used RO water and not tap water. That eliminates any minerals, or extra material that might be found in water, and their interactions. Could you perceive an aroma in the sugar water? Could you perceive an aroma if you preformed the same with sweet/unsweetened tea or coffee? I digress. .... So yes, the sugar does react with the components in the wine more ways than one.

I will repeat this experiment, and see if I can smell any sweetness in the water. I don't recall any.

I think it would be fun to try this experiment with a group, with a commercial, easily available wine so we all start from a 'standard'. I may suggest that to the beer club (some make wine as well, but it's interesting in other ways too).

But I guess that's the key take-away. I'm not so much tasting the sweetness of the sugar, but the effect of the sugar with other components of the wine. In this case, I did still prefer it w/o that small sugar addition.

I did aerate the wine before pulling the sample to dose, and I made a 1:1 concentration, 6 grams wine, 6 grams wine, stirred that to dissolve the sugar, and then added 1/20th in volume to dose 100mL of wine with 0.3 mL sugar, so there was very little additional stirring of the 100 mL of wine - that 'syrup mixed in easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker ... Also, may I suggest a Pinot Noir with your salmon, regardless of how you prepare it? DW and I love Sauv Blanc, but enjoy PN more with salmon, you will not be disappointed!

Will give that a try - thanks!

-ERD50

[Winemaker]

I always try to go to full dryness ~0.990 but not always successful, but close enough for wine work.
It all boils down to balance, and to some it's a wine snob comment. But I tend to think of myself not as a winemaker, but an educated wine consumer. I am totally immersed in my hobby and am quite passionate about it, but I have to be careful as to not to have others start rolling their eyes. The wine market is shrinking and consumers report a new attribute in wine, "smooth". To me this means balance, and I keep referring to one's efforts in making fresh lemonade, sugar to compensate for acid, acid to compensate for sugar. And alcohol, especially above 13%, is perceived to be sweet, and is part of the flavor profile. That is why expensive Cabs and Zins are usually 13.5%+.

This year, my Sauvignon Blanc grapes did not get me this year, because of the power outages. I was "forced" to buy juice that was hot pressed from NY in late November. It had perfect acid levels and the brix was right where I want it. However, after fermenting it out, it lacks a lot of fruitiness. By back sweetening it with some sugar, the fruitiness is vastly increased. While as a home winemaker I can add sugar to get where I want, unless I put potassium sorbate or more sufites in the wine, it will restart fermentation, as I don't sterile filter. I hate adding more and more "stuff" to my wines even though we're talking 50-100 ppm. So I have to add a non-fermentable sugar substitute which also sounds evil. Wine, whether through human intervention or God's, is a wonderful mixture of natural sugars, acids, phenols, thiols, terpenes, tannins, anthrocyans, yeasts, and sensitive to a lot of things. That's why a opened bottle of wine can taste better/worse the next day, or different bottle to bottle.

Here's a good article about sugar in wine.

https://winefolly.com/review/sugar-in-wine-chart/

[Midpack]

While 4 g/L may be too sweet for some, it still falls well within the dry category, nowhere near sweet. So those who might think 4 g/L might be off putting to wine drinkers who prefer dry, some perspective.

I’d love to do a blind tasting between 2-3 g/L and 4 g/L now that I’ve been told 4 g/L isn’t even wine. I’ll bet most people couldn’t tell the difference, “supertasters” aren’t common. Lots of info online, just one chart (same as link above).

Might want to check your units, your experiment might have been off 1,000X? Yet you immediately tasted the difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 One of the reviews mentioned the sugar content at 4mg/L. I prefer my reds dry (I've read these are typically ~ 2~3 mg/L), but was curious. I pulled 100 mL of this wine to a separate glass (after aerating the whole bottle), and added sugar at the rate of 3 mg/L (more details below if you care), to get closer to the 4 mg/L stated sugar content of the wine in the OP. I almost went straight to the double concentration, but took it in steps. I was shocked. I could immediately taste the difference of the added 3gm/L in my wine.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack While 4 g/L may be too sweet for some, it still falls in the dry category, nowhere near sweet. So those who might think 4 g/L might be off putting to wine drinkers who prefer dry, some perspective. ....

Please re-read my comments. I did not say my dosed sample tasted "sweet", I said the added sugar changed the taste (see Winemaker's comments on this).

For ref, I said (with emphasis):

Quote:

... I could immediately taste the difference of the added 3gm/L in my wine. DW could tell it, and was a little miffed at me for "wasting" 100 mL of our wine for dinner. Now, this wasn't sweet like a dessert wine, and I could see how some people might just see that as "boosting" the flavors that are there (the way salt enhances food w/o changing the basic flavor?). But to me, it really did come across as sweeter than I want with a wine to go with roast beef.

by "sweeter", I just meant no longer as dry as I like them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack ... now that I’ve been told 4 g/L isn’t even wine. ... ...

Take that up with anyone who said that, I sure didn't say that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack ... Might want to check your units, your experiment might have been off 1,000X? Yet you immediately tasted the difference?

Now you are just being silly. A 4 g/L dose is ~ 1 teaspoon sugar per Liter. I dosed a 100 mL sample (1/10th of a Liter). So to even be off by 10x means a full teaspoon in that glass, which I surely did not do. To be off by 100x would be 400 g in 100 L, and sugar won't even dissolve at that level. A 1,000X mistake - it wouldn't even fit in the bottle!

If you want to be taken seriously, try being serious.

edit - OK, I see I mis-typed mg for gram in that post. But it's still silly to think that would have been what I did in my experiment. I can barely weigh out grams, certainly cannot measure milligrams. And if I did, I would have had 1,000x less sugar, certainly not noticeable.

-ERD50

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 If you want to be taken seriously, try being serious. edit - OK, I see I mis-typed mg for gram in that post. But it's still silly to think that would have been what I did in my experiment. I can barely weight out grams, certainly cannot measure milligrams. And if I did, I would have had 1,000x less sugar, certainly not noticeable.

Glad I was able to help you catch your ongoing 1000X mistake. You corrected this one but the 1000X mistake persists in many earlier posts. How was I to know? Seriously?

Dry = 1-10 g/L for casual readers, that’s all I was hoping to convey.

BTW, are the residual sugar in wines the same as table sugar? Are fructose, glucose and sucrose interchangeable in “sweetness.”

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack Glad I was able to help you catch your mistake. You corrected this one but the 1000X mistake persists in many earlier posts. How was I to know? Seriously?

Context.

If you want to be helpful, why not just mention that I have a typo? I did that for you in a recent post where you left out a "zero", and the context could lead one to assume it was 100%.

Quote:

Dry = 1-10 g/L for casual readers, that’s all I was hoping to convey.

And other sources define "dry" as 2~3 g/L.

https://winemakermag.com/technique/5...gar-techniques

-ERD50

[Chuckanut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker This year, my Sauvignon Blanc grapes did not get me this year, because of the power outages. I was "forced" to buy juice that was hot pressed from NY in late November. It had perfect acid levels and the brix was right where I want it.

You learn something new every day.

There is a wine bar near me that is located in a very old brick building. The wine bar is called Brix. I had assumed this was due to the building's rather attractive walls of old bricks. Now I find it has to do with measuring the sugar level in the juice so as to determine the alcohol level of the finished wine. What a great name for a wine bar in a building made of old bricks. And it only took a bit over a decade for me to discover that.

We really don't know what we don't know.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut You learn something new every day. There is a wine bar near me that is located in a very old brick building. The wine bar is called Brix. I had assumed this was due to the building's rather attractive walls of old bricks. Now I find it has to do with measuring the sugar level in the juice so as to determine the alcohol level of the finished wine. What a great name for a wine bar in a building made of old bricks. And it only took a bit over a decade for me to discover that. We really don't know what we don't know.

And don't assume "Plato" refers to the philosopher! Plato is another sugar scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_measurement#Strength

-ERD50

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 And other sources define "dry" as 2~3 g/L. https://winemakermag.com/technique/5...gar-techniques -ERD50

And your link goes on to say off-dry starts at 10-50 g/L and sweet at 50-150 g/L. Not sure where that leaves 4 g/L - but it’s not “sweet” by anyone’s standard.

Quote:

Dry wines are typically in the 0.2–0.3 percent range, off-dry wines in the 1.0–5.0 percent range, and sweet dessert wines in the 5.0–15 percent range.

I’m done, just think about it from the other members POV next time you hijack someone else’s thread with tangents or picking nits...