Rising Mortality of Middle-Aged White Americans

[mpeirce]

I read this book a while back:

Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010

from one of the reviews:

Murray meticulously chronicles and measures the emergence of two wholly distinct classes: a new upper class, first identified in The Bell Curve as "the cognitive elite," and a new "lower class," which he is too polite to give a name.

The book goes into lots of detail. Basically, the civic and familial support structures in America are falling apart. For smart and/or people from advantaged backgrounds, they can still make it (like most of us here), but for the marginal folks, it's very tough going.

 

[Texas Proud]

I like that they have a cheaper rate for senior citizens.
It is not like that in NJ.

Our local community college has practical stuff too.
And there is partnership with 4-year university so that credits will transfer.

But for a 2-year degree, you generally need about 75 credits.
That would be $12,075 = $161 x 75.
That's a big chunk of change for a lot of people.

I think this is much cheaper than the bad for profit colleges that a bunch of people seem to flock to...

And if someone is unwilling to pay $12K to get a certificate that would more than double their income.... well, they are not thinking or just do not have the ability to learn...

 

[Walt34]

And if someone is unwilling to pay $12K to get a certificate that would more than double their income.... well, they are not thinking or just do not have the ability to learn...

And that's for an AA degree, four semesters at $3k each, which would be a struggle for someone low-income but they could skip semesters I suppose to stretch it out.

As an example, here's a robotics technician certificate that requires only 30 hours and the school says jobs pay $16-$20 per hour. Clearly dummies need not apply but it does offer an improved life over more menial tasks. Using that as a stepping stone it is not hard to see someone improving themselves continuously ending up fairly well off.

Program: Robotics Certificate - Blue Ridge Community and Technical College - Acalog ACMS™

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

The Washington Post has been doing a series of feature articles on so-called white people's problems, the opioid epidemic, etc.

They published one yesterday on the rise of disability claims in white rural areas. It profiles a family in rural Alabama where everyone is on disability. The parents are pressuring the 39-year-old son to go on disability so he can add to the family's shared income (currently about $3600 a month). He'd prefer to find a job but the only trade he knows is roofing, and nobody in his part of the state has money for roofs.

The only drugs mentioned in the article were tobacco and Mountain Dew (lots of both).

Disabled, or just desperate? Rural Americans turn to disability as jobs dry up | The Washington Post

If you want to see this 'in action', watch 'The Wonderful Whites of West Virgina'...it's quite enlightening.

Also, the book 'Hillbilly Elegy' BY J.D. Vance offers an inside look (and he does a very good job, btw) of the issues facing Appalachia.

 

[broadway]

If you want to see this 'in action', watch 'The Wonderful Whites of West Virgina'...it's quite enlightening.

Also, the book 'Hillbilly Elegy' BY J.D. Vance offers an inside look (and he does a very good job, btw) of the issues facing Appalachia.

I hadn't read about this until now.
So, I am guessing, this - getting disability though not truly disabled - is considered acceptable?

 

[zinger1457]

As ExFlyBoy mentioned an interesting read that discusses some of these issues is 'Hillbilly Elegy' by JD Vance. He discusses what he feels has gone wrong in 'working class' America in the last two decades. Some of his points have been mentioned here, drug and alcohol problems, a culture of people living off of government assistance. In many cases the jobs are there but employers have difficulty getting motivated workers that have the discipline or desire to make an effort to do the job. I recall having a discussion with a golf course superintendent in Arizona not to long ago and his reasoning for preferring migrant workers was not to save money but the quality of the work they provided and he knew he could depend on them to show up everyday.

 

[NW-Bound]

The Washington Post has been doing a series of feature articles on so-called white people's problems, the opioid epidemic, etc.

They published one yesterday on the rise of disability claims in white rural areas. It profiles a family in rural Alabama where everyone is on disability. The parents are pressuring the 39-year-old son to go on disability so he can add to the family's shared income (currently about $3600 a month). He'd prefer to find a job but the only trade he knows is roofing, and nobody in his part of the state has money for roofs.

The only drugs mentioned in the article were tobacco and Mountain Dew (lots of both).

Disabled, or just desperate? Rural Americans turn to disability as jobs dry up | The Washington Post

I just read the above article. Very sad. There's a man who knocks down 24 cans of Mountain Dew in 24 hours. And look at all the cigarettes they smoke. Cigarettes are expensive now. Isn't a pack about $7 or $8? Should they grow their own MJ, now that it is legal and that would save them some money?

The interviewee, a 40-year old guy, did not want to apply for disability, though he had some physical pains. He tried to find better jobs but could not get anything. He could not get into a welding class because he failed the math test. He did not want to apply for a fast-food job that pays only $7.25. He's stuck where he is.

 

[meierlde]

In putting together a reply I found a school that offers a comrehensive welding certificate in 3 semesters and an AA in 4. It is the same welding courses in both case but the AA adds a communication,english,math and physicis course plus one elective course : Front Range Community College - Welding Technology
Welding is again a field that in some subfields is hard to offshore (construction in partucular), as indeed plumbing and electrician jobs in repair and remodel are hard to offshore.

 

[meierlde]

I just read the above article. Very sad. There's a man who knocks down 24 cans of Mountain Dew in 24 hours. And look at all the cigarettes they smoke. Cigarettes are expensive now. Isn't a pack about $7 or $8? Should they grow their own MJ, now that it is legal and that would save them some money?

The interviewee, a 40-year old guy, did not want to apply for disability, though he had some physical pains. He tried to find better jobs but could not get anything. He could not get into a welding class because he failed the math test. He did not want to apply for a fast-food job that pays only $7.25. He's stuck where he is.

This does suggest that folks time spent reviewing and getting a GED should not count against time in unemployment. At 40 if you have not used something it may fall out of memory.

 

[audreyh1]

There is momentum behind the college degree. I suspect that if you have one, there is correlation with getting another. Also, you may see all additional certs and skills as desirable. The group being discussed may not be on a life long learning mission.

Hmmmm - there is definitely a US population that disrespects learning and education. Makes it kind of hard to get and keep better paying job I would think.

And it makes it even harder to compete against immigrants and their offspring who higher prize education.

 

[NW-Bound]

This does suggest that folks time spent reviewing and getting a GED should not count against time in unemployment. At 40 if you have not used something it may fall out of memory.

This guy did get his GED, after dropping out of school at 14. He did serve some prison time for burglaries. Perhaps that contributed to his not being able to get better jobs.

 

[samclem]

Hmmmm - there is definitely a US population that disrespects learning and education. Makes it kind of hard to get and keep better paying job I would think.

And it makes it even harder to compete against immigrants and their offspring who higher prize education.

There are many people who argue that college, in itself, doesn't give students many tools that directly help in earning a living (obviously, not including college degrees that are directly vocational--engineering, pharmacy, etc). These people maintain that college graduates do earn more but that inquisitive, intelligent, motivated, ambitious people are more likely to attend college, and they would have earned more than the average person regardless of whether they learned anything there or not.

But many employers use a college degree as a low-cost (to them) way of quickly screening applicants.

 

[meierlde]

This guy did get his GED, after dropping out of school at 14. He did serve some prison time for burglaries. Perhaps that contributed to his not being able to get better jobs.

But I do wonder how much of the ged learning he still remembers. Just like if you get to the more advanced parts of calculus that I knew 42 years ago how much I would remember now is unclear, as our brains tend to put things we know but don't use into deep storage. This is why the GED refresher course would make sense.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes. I do not know what kind of math test it is that this guy failed, but it is sad that it kept him from getting trained for a better job.

I used higher math in my work. Do not remember all that I had learned or taught myself, but am still able to help my son with his graduate courses when he asks. But it is for math issues only and not specific engineering aspects, as I am an EE and he is an ME.

 

[audreyh1]

There are many people who argue that college, in itself, doesn't give students many tools that directly help in earning a living (obviously, not including college degrees that are directly vocational--engineering, pharmacy, etc). These people maintain that college graduates do earn more but that inquisitive, intelligent, motivated, ambitious people are more likely to attend college, and they would have earned more than the average person regardless of whether they learned anything there or not.

But many employers use a college degree as a low-cost (to them) way of quickly screening applicants.

I wasn't even talking about college, just job skill retraining. For example, I know one guy, older, in an economically depressed area, who got some extra training in a special welding technique after he found out there was no longer anyone within close counties who could do it. Of course he had to go out of state temporarily to gain it and this is a resourceful individual.

But if you don't think you can learn new stuff, you're not even going to bother.

My mom grew up in that area, and one of the things that always struck me was how many of the local folks looked down on education and tended to distrust folks who were educated. Most of the ones who did get college degrees immediately moved away to where they could pursue careers in their chosen field. If you stayed behind, it was to operate your Daddy's farm, which eventually was mostly sold to pay off farming debt, or take over your Daddy's crop duster business.

 

[audreyh1]

Families are falling apart too, so people don't even have the support at home that they once might have had. I am surprised that more people aren't turning to religion in their time of need, but that doesn't seem to be happening either.

I see lots of turning to religion. If you look at maps of economically depressed areas, especially rural areas, these seem to be in areas that are traditionally very religious. And from what I see with new churches, etc., that trend is still on the rise.

Of course the family in the article didn't appear to have any contact with the local religious community.

 

[Walt34]

So, I am guessing, this - getting disability though not truly disabled - is considered acceptable?

I'm fairly sure that virtually any community has some pockets of population where this is true. I worked in a county that was and is one of the wealthiest in the country and there were definitely segments of the population where that was the case. No reason to believe that other places would be different.

 

[Starsky]

She didn't go to college. She was a waitress cum singer. She didn't have a proper bed. She had some loose woods in her bed. Never could afford meat, ate vegetarian food. But if I invited her out to Chinese food on a free gift certificate, she had no problem with meat. Oh yes, she drank beer like fish too. Poor Irish from Boston.

So this is the person you use to justify that most poor people - families, mothers, fathers, kids - use drugs? A young, alcoholic musician from Boston.

(FWIW, I will personally vouch for the fact that most musicians do.)

 

[mistershankly]

They just happen to be able to get by on a lot less because they are willing, and used to sacrificing more (living together, making the most out of the least, and even living in homeless conditions) and being less aspirational than Americans. Their expectations are far different and their behavior appropriate and predictable under the circumstances. The question is, should this be the norm for American workers too? For corporations looking at their largest variable expense, the answer would be "yes". The stick has taken the place of the carrot in Management circles. The 2009 crash opened the floodgates that had started after the dotcom bust.

I think this is already on its way to becoming the norm for Americans as the associations with certain work are revised to be socially acceptable. For example, 10 years ago, nobody would think being a cab driver was a reputable choice for a side gig or even a full time occupation. Uber has changed this association with a bring-your-own-car policy and a polished app as driving people around for money is more acceptable. The same thing goes for AirBnB as renting personal, living space to travelers is completely normal. Amazon’s Mechanical Turk program has opportunities to earn pennies per hour to partake in repetitive, low-skilled tasks. Americans are being increasingly reconditioned to work on tasks that may have been relegated to non-industrial and lesser-educated populations. Basic technology skills of working apps and internet sites has Americans more willing to partake in what were once undesirable occupations.

We have a Goodwill center in our city that takes up what was once a large K-Mart store. A section of the center has large, unsorted bins of clothes/books/gadgets brought out every 30-45 minutes. People wait around for these bins to come out and then converge like hyenas on a kill, as they elbow their way through the clothes that will later be sold on ebay and flea markets. There are incidents of fights breaking out, people being bitten to let go of what they have in their hand, etc. This is yet another example of how Americans are being reconditioned to work in ways that would have been considered the work of the uneducated and immigrants. The end result is a somewhat entrepreneurial and technically savvy workflow to sell things online, but it is (once again) the technical “dressing” over a fundamentally menial event of sorting through discarded goods.

 

[garyt]

If she could afford to go to college, she may not have had money, but she was not in the 'poor' category socio-economically speaking. Living a life of poverty is chronic, being educated and broke is not.

My company (in the food service field) has many jobs available for the unskilled. We hire minimum wage and up employees for providing school lunches. We have a heck of a time filling jobs because of failed drug tests and having no felonies. Turnover is huge from year to year.

 

[audreyh1]

Wow - failed drug tests and felony records. What % of the population does that keep from employment?

Not to mention turnover (I assume due to not sticking with the job, although being fired for cause must certainly play a part).

 

[mistershankly]

My company (in the food service field) has many jobs available for the unskilled. We hire minimum wage and up employees for providing school lunches. We have a heck of a time filling jobs because of failed drug tests and having no felonies. Turnover is huge from year to year.

If a person is hired at the entry level and is able to maintain employment, does the company offer some assistance (education, training) and encouragement to move up in the chain of command? I imagine that the company would want to retain these individuals who have real potential.

 

[Gumby]

Wow - failed drug tests and felony records. What % of the population does that keep from employment?

Not to mention turnover (I assume due to not sticking with the job, although being fired for cause must certainly play a part).

These are issues that Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP MorganChase, speaks about in this year's letter to shareholders.
https://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/investor-relations/document/ar2016-ceolettershareholders.pdf Discussion starts on Page 32.

 

[garyt]

If a person is hired at the entry level and is able to maintain employment, does the company offer some assistance (education, training) and encouragement to move up in the chain of command? I imagine that the company would want to retain these individuals who have real potential.

They do. Many of the Supervisors and "leaders" started as entry level workers and even temps.

 

[garyt]

Wow - failed drug tests and felony records. What % of the population does that keep from employment?

Not to mention turnover (I assume due to not sticking with the job, although being fired for cause must certainly play a part).

It's pretty amazing, really. They know they'll have to take a drug test and they still apply.