Running Fridge/Lights from LEAF

[NW-Bound]

I fear someone will do that with their hybrid car parked in their closed garage. That could end badly.

I would think any car that could auto-start the ICE in this manner would need a CO detector to shut it down above a certain level.

-ERD50

I wonder how the autostart feature gets turned on. I don't think the cars have that mode on by default.

 

[ERD50]

I wonder how the autostart feature gets turned on. I don't think the cars have that mode on by default.

No, certainly not on by default. In the earlier video, she shows you need to put it in a "drive mode" (I think that's what she called it), not just like the "accessory mode" in most cars. But that was for the Leaf, pure EV, woud need to check the Prius or other ICE/hybrid forums.

But I can imagine someone doing that in a closed garage. The engine may not start until hours later, so they may not even be thinking about that. They are just thinking the propulsion battery is charging the 12V accessory battery. Maybe they go to bed. Maybe they never wake up?

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, it certainly can be a hazard, the same way as the remote start available in some cars.

 

[ERD50]

Yes, it certainly can be a hazard, the same way as the remote start available in some cars.

Yes, those are scary as well. I read the manual on my car, you have to jump through some hoops to enable it each time (specific sequence of buttons that I forgot the one time I did want to use it!), and it shuts off after 15 minutes, with a limited number (2?) of retries before you need to go physically get in and start it.

Still a little scary, but if you can enable this mode in a hybrid, walk away, and the engine starts later, on its own, that has more potential for accidental disaster, I think.

-ERD50

 

[TromboneAl]

I'll have to evaluate the risks to the car and fridge.

All but one of the power outages we've had here (in 15 yrs) have been less than two days. One was several weeks.

The stuff in the fridge/freezer is fine within that range.

We can heat our house with our woodstove, but we get bored without internet and TV, and we have a neighbor with an annoyingly loud propane generator. So, as soon as it looks like the power's going to be off for more than a few hours, we usually go on a trip and stay at a hotel.

IOW, when you find a new hammer, everything looks like a nail. It would be cool and fun to implement this, but maybe not necessary.

But I might use my current wimpy inverter to run the electronics of the on-demand, propane water heater, the fan in the woodstove, and some lights. Maybe the router and internet cable modem.

 

[travelover]

I looked into this when I had my hybrid Escape. It had a 120 amp DC-DC inverter, but the 12 volt battery itself was relatively small which limits how much actual surge power you can get out of an inverter, regardless of its rated output. I'd also add that AC motors don't like modified sine inputs, so a true / pure sine wave inverter is a smart choice, as noted by NW.

One guy that I discovered had a web site where he showed the use of a surplus commercial DC-AC inverter so he could pull power straight off the big battery and have generous amounts of power, though that would be overkill for your needs.

I can run my internet router off a jumper pack with a mini 12 volt plug and then use my iPad for internet amusement.

 

[KenZ71]

About 5 years ago I bought a pure sinewave 1500 / 3000 inverter expressly to keep the gas boiler going. Haven't had the need to use it so I think of it like a one time insurance payment.

I have run internet modem & router off car batteries for half a day. That kept the family happy.

 

[NW-Bound]

I looked into this when I had my hybrid Escape. It had a 120 amp DC-DC inverter, but the 12 volt battery itself was relatively small which limits how much actual surge power you can get out of an inverter, regardless of its rated output...

A 12V marine battery at Costco will set you back about $80, plus a pair of cables to parallel it with the car battery. Problem solved.

 

[travelover]

A 12V marine battery at Costco will set you back about $80, plus a pair of cables to parallel it with the car battery. Problem solved.

Yup, that'll work but now we don't have a simple solution. That battery has to have heavy cables and be mounted somewhere next to the other battery and the two batteries are mismatched, so that complicates their charging in parallel.

 

[samclem]

A related note: When we moved into our present house, I bought an 11HP, 120/240VAC, 5.13 KVA generator for emergency power so I could run our well pump (220VAC/approx 3100 starting watts) along with a few other things.
In retrospect, I would have been better off with a couple of deep cycle 12V/200AH batteries, a true sine wave inverter of about 3500 peak/2000 continuous watts, and a small generator. Run the generator (or car alternator) a couple of times per day to top off the battery, get the freezer re-cooled, and collect water in the tub, then coast on the batteries for continuous loads (lights, small freezer, room fan or furnace blower, occasional well pump).

With the big generator that I have now, I only have >any< power when it is running. If anything goes wrong with it, I'm entirely down (and there are LOTS of things to go wrong with it). It sits around all the time unused, which does not increase my faith it will work when needed.
With batteries/inverter/small generator I'd have much more flexibility and redundancy. Batteries would be on float charge, so power would be available fast. Recharge could come from my car's 100A alternator, from a cheapy $110 2-stroke generator, from a nice quiet inverter generator, or even supplemented by some solar panels hooked to the batteries. Failure of any single part would still allow degraded operation. It would be silent most of the time.
Anyway, live and learn I guess. I'd need to find a suitable inexpensive 220VAC/60cycle true sine wave inverter of about 3500 peak watts/2000 continuous.

 

[travelover]

......... Recharge could come from my car's 100A alternator, from a cheapy $110 2-stroke generator, from a nice quiet inverter generator, or even supplemented by some solar panels hooked to the batteries....... .

Right now my back up is a 6000 watt generator that I converted to natural gas and a cheap Harbor Freight 2 cycle generator. The big generator is very loud and total overkill, except for the well pump. So, my plan for an extended outage is to run the big generator periodically and the little generator for just lights and internet. I wired my service panel interlock so I can plug the generators straight into the breaker box. The small generator would power both sides of the box at 110 volts and any 220 circuits won't work, whereas the big generator provides 220 volts. Eventually, I'll pick up an small inverter 2000 watt generator for camping and use it to replace the cheapy 2 cycle generator.

 

[NW-Bound]

... I'd need to find a suitable inexpensive 220VAC/60cycle true sine wave inverter of about 3500 peak watts/2000 continuous.

An inverter that supplies that much power out of 12V will draw 300-400 Amp!

I think such an inverter exist, but you will need to run it off a bank of at least 4 12V lead-acid batteries, and the big cables to wire them in parallel to the inverter will be unwieldy and cost a lot of money.

How about using a 220V inverter that runs at 24V or 48V, feeding from multiple batteries wired in series, not parallel, to reduce the wiring cost and the voltage drop due to horrendous currents?

This is the type that off-grid people use to generate whole-house power from batteries. And a popular brand is MPP Solar, out of Taiwan and not mainland China, who makes a series of such inverters.

And the beauty of their inverters is that they include a solar charger so that you can just wire solar panels to the inverter box.

And more! The inverters also incorporate a line charger, so that you can charge the batteries off the grid, or off a generator if you wish.

If the generator has remote starting capability, their inverters will wake up the generator to recharge the batteries when the latter are run down.

Check them out. There's a forum frequented by off-grid Aussies, and they have a lot of experience with this brand.

 

[NW-Bound]

A couple of Aussies in the mentioned forum even hacked the microcontroller firmware in the inverters to tweak some operating parameters to their liking.

These are smart guys, who also have a lot of free time apparently.

 

[ls99]

A few years ago had an electrician install a manual transfer switch at the house. I paid for a licensed electrician, so am covered for insurance purposes, even though it is a simple proposition to install one.
He noted that usually once these things are installed no more significant power failures will happen. Turned out to be true. In the past three years or so the longest power outage was maybe 5 minutes a few times.

The power plant is 12KW 220VAC gasoline powered generator which came with my camp, noisy bugger.

At the camp now is an old Onan 3KW 1800 rpm pretty quiet unit with a motrcycle muffler on it which makes it barely audible at 20 feet. The muffler I found in the woods at the camp, price was great!


Normally the camp is powered by mostly DC from two golf cart batteries, fed by solar panels and wind generator. Occasional need for AC is by a 2KW inverter.

 

[Walt34]

A few years ago had an electrician install a manual transfer switch at the house. I paid for a licensed electrician, so am covered for insurance purposes, even though it is a simple proposition to install one.

He noted that usually once these things are installed no more significant power failures will happen. Turned out to be true. In the past three years or so the longest power outage was maybe 5 minutes a few times.

That was just about our experience too. I bought the generator when we were living just outside Washington, D.C. In that area most development happened in the '50's and '60's or earlier, so all the power lines were on poles up in the trees. Every time there was a significant storm we lost power and having a generator was a good thing.

When we moved to WV I thought it would be worse and wasted no time in having the transfer switch installed. The opposite turned out to be the case. Being a newer development here all the utilities are underground, and the only time we used the generator was over at FIL's house once when he lost power. Until last Sunday, when the wind took out the power for a good 12 hours. With an overnight low of 28° F we were glad we'd spent the money on it.

 

[travelover]

.........He noted that usually once these things are installed no more significant power failures will happen. Turned out to be true. In the past three years or so the longest power outage was maybe 5 minutes a few times...........

At my last house, I bought a 4000 watt generator to prepare and for the first 20 years, it was almost never used. Then the emerald ash borer showed up and falling trees were taking out the power once a month, sometimes for a couple of days, especially in winter storms. So, sometimes it is hard to predict the risk.

 

[ls99]

At my last house, I bought a 4000 watt generator to prepare and for the first 20 years, it was almost never used. Then the emerald ash borer showed up and falling trees were taking out the power once a month, sometimes for a couple of days, especially in winter storms. So, sometimes it is hard to predict the risk.

Right. I will keep the gen set. Or maybe sell it to someone who needs big power and get a smaller quieter unit. But, being retired, no hurry, no worry.

 

[TromboneAl]

He noted that usually once these things are installed no more significant power failures will happen. Turned out to be true.

Same principle here:

 

[samclem]

Right now my back up is a 6000 watt generator that I converted to natural gas and a cheap Harbor Freight 2 cycle generator. The big generator is very loud and total overkill, except for the well pump. So, my plan for an extended outage is to run the big generator periodically and the little generator for just lights and internet. I wired my service panel interlock so I can plug the generators straight into the breaker box. The small generator would power both sides of the box at 110 volts and any 220 circuits won't work, whereas the big generator provides 220 volts. Eventually, I'll pick up an small inverter 2000 watt generator for camping and use it to replace the cheapy 2 cycle generator.

It sounds like we are in much the same boat. IIRC, some of those quiet inverter generators have the ability to use a 12V battery to provide additional surge 120VAC capacity (for starting AC units, pumps, etc), which could be handy.

Since the well pump is really the big challenge (needing 220VAC and with a big start-up wattage), another approach I've considered is just using a separate small 12VDC lowered into the well. If I got a small 60W/12VDC pump with a 100PSI cutout switch (they make many PSI ratings and watt ratings), and if it is 75' below (32PSI head) my pressure tank, then it would fill the tank to approx 70 PSI and stop. I'm sure the delivery rate would be very slow (rated at 5LPM at unstated backpressure). But I'm in no hurry, and a filled pressure tank is 10 gallons. Or, go primitive and use it to fill buckets.

Maybe just put the pump on top of a 2' long 2" dia PVC pipe "float" and lower it into the well, along with it's supply wires and a 5/8" vinyl water line. I don't know if it would fit and not get fouled on the standard well pump water and electric lines. Lowering >anything< down a well is fraught with considerable risk.

But the payoff of eliminating the 220VAC/3000W (peak) well pump requirement is very big. Then everything is 110VAC and a max peak load of less than 2000W, inverters to do that are plentiful.

How about using a 220V inverter that runs at 24V or 48V, feeding from multiple batteries wired in series, not parallel, to reduce the wiring cost and the voltage drop due to horrendous currents?

That would work. Unless I could find a $pecialized charger/inverter, I suppose this would mean disconnecting them from their "load" series wiring to allow them to be charged individually at 12VDC from regular float chargers/ubiquitous car battery chargers.

This is the type that off-grid people use to generate whole-house power from batteries. And a popular brand is MPP Solar, out of Taiwan and not mainland China, who makes a series of such inverters.

And the beauty of their inverters is that they include a solar charger so that you can just wire solar panels to the inverter box.

And more! The inverters also incorporate a line charger, so that you can charge the batteries off the grid, or off a generator if you wish.

If the generator has remote starting capability, their inverters will wake up the generator to recharge the batteries when the latter are run down.

Check them out. There's a forum frequented by off-grid Aussies, and they have a lot of experience with this brand.

I'll take a look at it, thanks. It may be a bit much (complexity/expense) for emergency use only.

 

[NW-Bound]

... I'll take a look at it, thanks. It may be a bit much (complexity/expense) for emergency use only.

Living here in the Phoenix metropolitan area for more than 40 years, I have had power outages for perhaps 4 or 5 times. The longest was for maybe 4 hours.

I would not build this solar/lithium-battery off-grid system just for power outage. I am doing this to store harvested solar power to use during on-peak periods, when a kWh costs 22c instead of 7c.

The coverage for power outage just comes out of this. The total cost is a lot more than a whole house generator, which I would not even need. A 2kW Honda generator costing $1K would be sufficient. And in fact I survived 40 years without one.

 

[samclem]

Living here in the Phoenix metropolitan area for more than 40 years, I have had power outages for perhaps 4 or 5 times. The longest was for maybe 4 hours.

We've lived here in here in SW Ohio for about 15 years, and we've been without power for more than a day a couple of times. The biggest threat would be an ice storm or windstorm that caused a lot of downed trees. Since power companies have been deregulated they've become more cost conscious and have reduced the number of qualified line crews to do emergency repairs. There is good cooperation between power companies, with solid emergency plans to lend crews and equipment to each other, but I can easily foresee a big regional ice storm leaving folks without power for a week or more. I'd like to have power for essential things over a time period like that, maybe longer if it can be done economically.

 

[NW-Bound]

If I were in a snow or hurricane country, I would definitely have on hand a generator, preferably a nice quiet one like the 2kW inverter-type Honda generator.

To avoid having to run it 24/7, I would augment it with an MPP Solar inverter/charger, coupled with some marine lead-acid batteries (lithium batteries are too pricey for infrequent use). The inverter+battery setup will cost less than $1K. At least 2 batteries will be needed for the 24V input inverter.

And once you have that, you may want to get some solar panels, wire it up to the inverter/charger to get some additional power even when there's no outage. If you do not have a big 22kWh lithium battery like I do, and have no place to store the power you cannot use, you can always dump it into your electric water heater.

PS. The inverter/charger will charge the batteries as a 24V or 48V bank, depending on the model. The charging power can be simultaneous from the solar panels and the line power/generator.

 

[travelover]

...... I'd like to have power for essential things over a time period like that, maybe longer if it can be done economically.

Seems like the sticking point is the 220 volt power for the well. I picked up my 6000 watt generator with electric start for $200 off Craigslist. The worst part is keeping fresh gas on hand, which is why I added the natural gas option. If you primarily relied on a small inverter generator, your total gasoline requirement for a whole week could probably be pulled off your vehicle tanks and that assumes you couldn't run up to the gas station with cans. The inverter generators are amazing fuel efficient and can also be converted to propane or natural gas quite easily. And you can use the inverter generator with your Casita for camping.

Conversion kit link
https://www.motorsnorkel.com/

 

[NW-Bound]

One more thing about the inverter/charger operation.

When a power source (grid power or generator) is provided to the inverter/charger, it can be programmed to pass-through that power to the load, and also use that external power to charge the battery.

Then, when the power is lost, it will switch the inverter on to supply the load. In other words, it's a big UPS, the same as used to support PCs. Then, the battery charging function with solar panels is tacked on top of that.

The only maintenance problem with this is the care of the lead-acid batteries. However, with the inverter/charger maintaining the charge on the batteries, it's not any worse than how you maintain the batteries for your camper, or your boat.

In fact, the same batteries can be used for both purposes: camping/boating as well as keeping your fridge running during outages.

 

[NW-Bound]

Regarding inverter generators, we know that the Honda series of 1000W, 2200W, and 3000W generators sets the standard. There are now many contenders that sell for as low as 1/2 price, but are they any good?

According to Consumer Reports, yes, some of them are just as good, although the warranty does not last as long.

“The inverter generators we’ve tested from Predator are really refined pieces of equipment, easily meeting power demands and humming along quietly,” says Dave Trezza, who oversees CR’s generator testing.

For more, see: https://www.consumerreports.org/inv...-eu2000it1a1-recreational-inverter-generator/.