save me paying a plumber please! :)

[Retch The Grate]

So we bought a new house, we just ran the dishwasher that the previous owner had installed for the sale and never run (all the foam and stickers were still inside it, we took them out). Water came pumping out of the air gap. I was surprised, because brand new. Started looking, no sign of a block, no sign of any debris, decided they must have left the knockout plug in the garbage disposal.

Several minutes later, somewhat covered in dripping water, I've got the hose off the garbage disposal and the plug was already properly removed so not that. Mystery! I keep look closely at the air gap, and the hoses, and some online user manuals for air gaps, and it is pretty obvious they installed the hoses backwards, the dishwasher was draining into the outer part of the air gap, so of course the water flows out the vents rather than getting to the pipe that is above that level. Yay, solved! I reverse the hoses, put it all back together, and run the dishwasher to fill and then drain, expecting a triumph and the adulation of DW.

Nope, water comes spraying out the air gap! :P So... I'm now at a loss as to why this isn't working. I've got the water from the dishwasher coming up the skinny internal pipe in the air gap, it hits the cap, and then jets out the slots instead of flowing down the hose to the garbage disposal. Is it because the hose is too long (it seems way too long, when the handyman is on site on monday I'm going to see if we can trim the hose)? Is it because the hose is too narrow (neither hose was super wide)? Is it because the hoses are accordianed rather than smooth? Any ideas?

It definitely isn't a clog. I'm 99.9% certain I got the dishwasher hooked up correctly since I see the water come up the small pipe now which makes sense for an air gap, I just don't get why it jets out the vents instead of flowing back down the larger outer pipe now. As a renter I never had to deal with this, all the dishwashers I've had have been working correctly when I moved in... This really doesn't seem like I should need a plumber (he's expensive!) but googling just yields hundreds of people talking about how it means there's a clog, I've blown air through the obviously brand new hose, there is no clog.

[RetireeRobert]

Get a plumber who specifically is experienced on D/W installs.

Expert help doesn't cost, it pays. Good luck.

In the meantime, have you called the D/W manufacturer customer help line? Sometimes they can shed some light on idiosyncricies.

[Sunset]

OP - photos with your phone would help a lot. Show connection to the air gap.

The hose from the dishwasher is often accordion type.

I've never used an air-gap, just ran the hose directly to the sink waste pipe. Also never had a garbage disposal (as I have no use for those).

So mine have always looked like this (except often accordion hoses):

[Sunset]

I just looked up the air-gap thing, and the easy answer is it probably is plugged on the downward route in the air-gap or past the air-gap.

From your description, I think water goes up to the airgap, then cannot go down the pipe from the air-gap, disconnect that pipe and blow or pour water down it and see if it goes down, if it does, it seems like it's the air-gap device itself that is plugged.

Here is a random pict of air-gap device.

[mountainsoft]

You can pop the top off of the air gap and see if there is a clog in it. Or just buy a new air gap at your local home center, they're like $10-15 usually. Check the hoses for clogs too.

However, I'm betting the problem is a clog in your main sink drain. Sink faucets usually have low flow aerators so a partially clogged drain may be able to keep up. On the other hand, a dishwasher pumps out more water that can overwhelm a partially clogged drain, and thus will backup into the air gap (or into the sink).

Kitchen drains tend to clog up easier since grease and other food scraps usually get washed down the drain. Fill up the sink with water then pull the drain. If it doesn't drain quickly or glugs as it drains you probably have a clog.

We usually dismantle the plastic P-trap and associated drains once or twice a year and clean them out. It's amazing, and kind of gross, to see how much builds up in the drains (and we're really careful about what goes down our drain). It's not hard, my wife usually does ours. The fittings are generally just hand tight, but you might need a large pair of pliers if they're tight.

Cleaning the drain fittings usually fixes most clogs, but if it's further down the line you might need to run a snake down the drain. It's not difficult, but does require a drain snake and some patience. It's up to you whether it would be easier to call a plumber.

[RobbieB]

I prefer the "high loop", just pin the dishwasher discharge hose to the top of the cab. The sink would have to be full to the top for water to back flow.

It's even legal here in CA. A new buy has to have an air gap but a redo doesn't. I redo'd the air gap in the garbage can! Damn thing was always blowing water out the vents.

[RetireeRobert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobbieB I prefer the "high loop", just pin the dishwasher discharge hose to the top of the cab. The sink would have to be full to the top for water to back flow.

Yes, I second that idea.

That's how my D/W discharge hose is. Looped to a high point in sink cabinet after coming out from D/W. The high end of loop is just help in place by a zip/tie tacked to cabinet. Then the D/W discharge hose drops back down to where it connect to garbage disposer. My install is only maybe 1-1/2 to 2 years old.

[Retch The Grate]

Like I said, no clog, it's new hose, and I disconnected it all and blew through it and ran water through it. My guess is it is the long loop of hose that is connected between the air gap and the disposal, it drops down to the bottom of the cabinet and comes back up again, so that's my next thing to try changing.

RetireeRobert this seems to fall into the level of plumbing I need to be able to handle as a homeowner. If I can't fix it, then yeah, plumber, but really, it seems super simple, and youtube seems to confirm it should be. Definitely just one more example of how sloppy the contractors were that the homeowner used for the reno before she sold to us (but hey, success, we loved the house and bought it despite all the reno flaws I saw before we made an offer). I'm about 95% certain a shorter hose will do it. :P

[Retch The Grate]

California, so the air gap is required according to what I've read of code, and I like having the air gap, when it is working! Heh.

Didn't look like the drain, running the faucet into the sink has no trouble draining out of the garbage disposal, but if it is, that definitely hits my level of letting a plumber deal with it. The house is 60 years old, so aspects of it are definitely aged. No idea if anybody ever renovated the plumbing. :P

[teetee]

How old is the disposal? What happens if you disconnect the outgo hose from the air gap and pour water into it (may need a funnel for this, or do it over a bucket) does it go down past the disposal and into the drain? Does it help the drain during the test when the disposal is turned on?

[Sunset]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retch The Grate California, so the air gap is required according to what I've read of code, and I like having the air gap, when it is working! Heh. Didn't look like the drain, running the faucet into the sink has no trouble draining out of the garbage disposal, but if it is, that definitely hits my level of letting a plumber deal with it. The house is 60 years old, so aspects of it are definitely aged. No idea if anybody ever renovated the plumbing. :P

Not sure you tested properly.
Like Mountainsoft said: "Fill up the sink with water then pull the drain. If it doesn't drain quickly or glugs as it drains you probably have a clog."

Running the tap alone won't show a partial plug.

Garbage disposals (IMHO) are stupid, as they encourage people to throw garbage down the drain, instead of in the garbage pail. It also complicates and adds a few hundred dollars to the drainage system.
Perhaps the old owner was throwing in all sorts of fatty food parts, chicken bones etc and washing it down with hot water, not realizing it will stick farther down.

[Sunset]

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetee How old is the disposal? What happens if you disconnect the outgo hose from the air gap and pour water into it (may need a funnel for this, or do it over a bucket) does it go down past the disposal and into the drain? Does it help the drain during the test when the disposal is turned on?

I was thinking somewhat similar.
Hook the dishwasher directly to the garbage disposal , so the air gap is not used.
Then test.
If the Dishwasher drains fine, OP knows the issue is the air-gap and can investigate/fix or abandon it.

[38Chevy454]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunset I was thinking somewhat similar. Hook the dishwasher directly to the garbage disposal , so the air gap is not used. Then test. If the Dishwasher drains fine, OP knows the issue is the air-gap and can investigate/fix or abandon it.

That is my suggestion also

[gauss]

Wow! I haven't seen one of those air gaps since the 1970s when we moved out of my childhood home.

I have long since forgot them.

Thanks for the nostalgia!

-gauss

[Souschef]

I think the other thing may be that loop from the air gap to the disposal is too long, and forms a P-trap, so the water backs up. I had the same problem with the condensate hose from my A/C. There was a flex hose that sagged and formed a P=trap and the water did not go through.

[Sunset]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Souschef I think the other thing may be that loop from the air gap to the disposal is too long, and forms a P-trap, so the water backs up. I had the same problem with the condensate hose from my A/C. There was a flex hose that sagged and formed a P=trap and the water did not go through.

Difference is a dishwasher ejects the water under pressure, so pretty doubtful that is the reason, besides it sprays out of the air-gap so it's still under pressure.

[Music Lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retch The Grate Like I said, no clog, it's new hose, and I disconnected it all and blew through it and ran water through it. My guess is it is the long loop of hose that is connected between the air gap and the disposal, it drops down to the bottom of the cabinet and comes back up again, so that's my next thing to try changing.

Are you saying that after the air gap at the top, the drain hose then goes to the bottom of the cabinet and then back up? Is it supposed to do that? I thought the drain hose was suppose to go up and then down right into the drain....not up, down, then up again.

[RetireeRobert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retch The Grate Like I said, no clog, it's new hose, and I disconnected it all and blew through it and ran water through it. My guess is it is the long loop of hose that is connected between the air gap and the disposal, it drops down to the bottom of the cabinet and comes back up again, so that's my next thing to try changing.

In my install, after the D/W discharge hose drops down to where it connects to the disposer, that section is "all" downhill. You say yours drops from high point to cabinet bottom, then back up to disposer.

So, yes, I would make sure your hose is "all" downhill, all the way to disposer. And like you say, to the extent you can shorten that total length of discharge hose, probably the better.

[Retch The Grate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Music Lover Are you saying that after the air gap at the top, the drain hose then goes to the bottom of the cabinet and then back up? Is it supposed to do that? I thought the drain hose was suppose to go up and then down right into the drain....not up, down, then up again.

Yeah, I don't think it is supposed to do this, but a lot of the reno work is lackadaisical at best. Sloppy, poor and slapped together is more accurate I think. :P

[Retch The Grate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetee How old is the disposal? What happens if you disconnect the outgo hose from the air gap and pour water into it (may need a funnel for this, or do it over a bucket) does it go down past the disposal and into the drain? Does it help the drain during the test when the disposal is turned on?

disposal appears to be brand new. I'll try running water down the hose and see what happens, it has enough length I can get it to the faucet while still being connected, will slightly change the geometry but seems like a good test.