Self-Driving Cars -- Needs of the Many vs Numero Uno

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_Steve System failure. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/bu...tion.html?_r=0

To add to the story it appears that there was a portable DVD player that might have been running in the Tesla playing a Harry Potter movie.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan To add to the story it appears that there was a portable DVD player running in the Tesla playing a Harry Potter movie.

Quote:

A digital video disc player was found in the Tesla car that was on autopilot when its driver was killed in a May 7 collision with a truck, Florida Highway Patrol officials said on Friday. Whether the portable DVD player was operating at the time of the crash has not been determined, however, and witnesses who came upon the wreckage of the 2015 Model S sedan gave differing accounts on Friday about whether the player was showing a movie.

DVD player found in Tesla car in fatal May crash | Reuters

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_Steve System failure. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/bu...tion.html?_r=0

The Tesla Model S is NOT an self-driving or autonomous vehicle.

Quote:

Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Autosteer is enabled. Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel.

https://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/autopilot

[ivinsfan]

Yes, I guess only the driver would know exactly what was going on inside the car. It's a fact that sometime stuff just happens when driving, whether it's human or autopilot. Even the world's best driver isn't immune from a freak accident.

I still think the self driving car is more reliable then a texting driver. In Wisconsin they just acquitted a lady who had an accident that killed her daughter and 2 of her nieces. The charge was inattentive driving, with some evidence she had been posting on FB. Her lawyer said the real reason was icy roads and bad tires. They had some footage of her at the trial and she literally looked like a dead woman walking.

I know how eyewitness stories can be varied, so I corrected my post to read might have been.

[JoeWras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888 And our lawn service that depends on multiple stops, pulling a trailer full of lawn equipment, that is sometimes called upon to back into a wooded area to get access to tree branches, etc. Boy, that would be a challenge for automated driving.

You perfectly describe a scenario that has been on my mind. This is why I think the initial roll out will be on specific designated roads. This is another reason I say "50". The average age of a laborer's car in Raleigh is about 15-20 years. That's probably typical. It is going to take time for the transition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 But from what I recall from my readings on Fenyman's analysis of the Challenger disaster, it was much more of a management failure that an engineering failure.

Yes, but managers are engineers too, just as headquarter generals are soldiers. Musk has given the public way too much of a rosey view. He is primarily a manager. Engineering is more than tech, it is project management, it is cost analysis, it is sales and publicity.

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Originally Posted by Midpack The Tesla Model S is NOT an self-driving or autonomous vehicle.

Precisely. Apparently some people haven't gotten the memo.

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Originally Posted by NW-Bound No, as an engineer I never thought that we were invincible. It may be because of my first job being on the R&D for the aforementioned autoland autopilot. We took things very seriously, so I have been very alarmed with the cavalier attitude of many driverless car developers. Excuse me, but I think some of them border on stupidity.

Totally agree, brother!

[Which Roger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888 And our lawn service that depends on multiple stops, pulling a trailer full of lawn equipment, that is sometimes called upon to back into a wooded area to get access to tree branches, etc. Boy, that would be a challenge for automated driving. Will there be "self driving kits" to adapt an old pick up truck into a high tech unit? And pulling a boat out of a lake and managing trailer brakes. Gosh, that would be exciting with a Tesla pickup on autopilot! I see lots of daily uses associated with vehicles that are not easily programmed like just point A to B.

These scenarios account for only a tiny fraction of all driving, so the easiest way to handle this would be for the driver to be in control, with some assistance from the vehicle. Sort of like we have today with backup sensors and the like.

If we establish the infrastructure (road sensors, etc) to support fully automated driving just on busy interstates in the most populous area, we will get most of the benefit in terms of relieving congestion and increasing safety.

Automated driving on cross-country road trips would be convenient, but the investment in infrastructure would not be cost effective, since rural interstates and other roads are not congested, and there are relatively few accidents because there are relatively few vehicles.

[easysurfer]

I think in time self-driving cars will be a lot safer than human driven.

But in the meantime I step back and wonder why all this need, quest, lust to replace people with artificial intelligence (AI)? Fitbits, Alexa, future drone deliveries, Virtual Reality to name a few.

I still think doctors will always have a stethoscope for safe measure.

[NW-Bound]

An autopilot for a car is only as good as its sensors. It is still just a computer. "Garbage in, garbage out" still applies.

Tesla has all kinds of caveats to warn the user to remain attentive all the time. Yet, at the same time they go around claiming it is better than the average driver. Hah!

There's evidence suggesting that the killed driver was watching a portable DVD. That would explain why he failed to notice that the autopilot was about to drive him through the broadside of an 18-wheeler, shearing the top of his car off.

Tesla's autopilot is not yet better than a texting teenager!

[Music Lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound There's evidence suggesting that the killed driver was watching a portable DVD. That would explain why he failed to notice that the autopilot was about to drive him through the broadside of an 18-wheeler, shearing the top of his car off. Tesla's autopilot is not yet better than a texting teenager!

The fact that a driver in a test model wasn't watching the road is a good indication that with human nature being what it is, one would have to assume that a large percentage of people with self-driving cars would be doing exactly that...watching a DVD, texting, etc., because if the car is driving, then they would think that they are free to do whatever they want.

[NW-Bound]

Some people will have to learn the hard way. At least in this case, there's no bystander being harmed. Future accidents may get worse.

[Texas Proud]

Just throwing in my 2 cents....

Not all the sensors will work all the time as intended... the other day I put my car in reverse and looked at the screen for the backup camera.... well, there was just a bright light.... the camera was looking directly at the sun and I could not see anything... not a big deal as I can always look like I do in my other car.... but if this were a self driving car I wonder what it would have done

[easysurfer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Music Lover The fact that a driver in a test model wasn't watching the road is a good indication that with human nature being what it is, one would have to assume that a large percentage of people with self-driving cars would be doing exactly that...watching a DVD, texting, etc., because if the car is driving, then they would think that they are free to do whatever they want.

I think a danger with all the electronics is the false sense of security and the human drivers letting their guard down. Maybe, this situation with Tesla will lead to a better clarification in the future if cars are fully automated vs say, mostly or somewhat automated.

Some automated assist, I do swear by, like when driving in a snowstorm (next time, I'm staying home) on the way to visit a brother for the Superbowl a couple years back (just give the ball to Lynch, beast mode!) and traction assist on was a life saver from slipping and sliding all over the place.

[NW-Bound]

Yes, I do believe in technology helping our lives. But we need to know its limitations. I think the enthusiastic public is often too enamored with technology and embraces it before it's time. People who are aware of the shortcomings and reluctant to use it are called luddite.

I do not yet own any car with fancy features. It will be a while before they have a reliable autopilot, but how about just driver assistance features? Lane deviation warning is a safe thing. However, I usually stop driving long before I get so drowsy, and I do not text, and not even use my phone for talking. Blind spot detection is a very welcome feature. But can they get it reliable enough for me not to have to turn my head to double check? Read what one Tesla driver said about that in an earlier post.

Basically, it may be a while before all these fancy-schmancy features become reliable for us not having to double check them ourselves. Trust them at your peril.

[ExFlyBoy5]

This was the first fatal accident for Tesla in 130 million miles. In 2008, the number of fatalities per million miles was 1.27. I would say it's a pretty safe system...if you pay attention.


Edit...somehow the thread was showing the latest post from yesterday, so my comments about how the driver was partially negligent has already been discussed. I did find it interesting that he was a former Navy SEAL.

Oh yes, and this from an article, "Tesla says it’s not possible to play videos on the 17-inch center stack LCD when the car is moving." Is this fact? I know that there are lots of hacks out there for similar setups that allow you to bypass this. The driver was a tech expert of some sort, so do we *know* that it wasn't bypassed?

[Music Lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Blind spot detection is a very welcome feature. But can they get it reliable enough for me not to have to turn my head to double check?

This is one of my pet peeves. With correctly adjusted mirrors and nothing blocking the windows, there is no blind spot. Unfortunately, it seems that all new vehicles have this feature, and those of us who don't need or want it are still forced to pay for it.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan ...It's a fact that sometime stuff just happens when driving, whether it's human or autopilot. Even the world's best driver isn't immune from a freak accident... ...In Wisconsin they just acquitted a lady who had an accident that killed her daughter and 2 of her nieces. The charge was inattentive driving, with some evidence she had been posting on FB. Her lawyer said the real reason was icy roads and bad tires....

The future autonomous car (not any of the present "autopilot" cars) will be able to say to the passenger "The road icy condition is getting so bad, I am going to pull over to the shoulder and stop".

Yes, it takes a lot of AI to make a car without steering wheel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExFlyBoy5 This was the first fatal accident for Tesla in 130 million miles. In 2008, the number of fatalities per million miles was 1.27. I would say it's a pretty safe system...if you pay attention.

If you pay attention...

So, it is like having 2 drivers in the car double checking each other constantly. Yes, it should be safer than a single driver.

Youtube has plenty of videos showing Tesla autopilot hiccups that the driver needed to take over. Any of those would result in a serious accident if the driver were watching Harry Potter.

Tesla autopilot is safe up until it gives up the driving to the driver, or the driver overrides it.

Quote:

...Oh yes, and this from an article, "Tesla says it’s not possible to play videos on the 17-inch center stack LCD when the car is moving." Is this fact? I know that there are lots of hacks out there for similar setups that allow you to bypass this. The driver was a tech expert of some sort, so do we *know* that it wasn't bypassed?

They found a portable DVD inside the car. A witness said that it was still playing when he first arrived at the scene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Just throwing in my 2 cents.... Not all the sensors will work all the time as intended... the other day I put my car in reverse and looked at the screen for the backup camera.... well, there was just a bright light.... the camera was looking directly at the sun and I could not see anything... not a big deal as I can always look like I do in my other car.... but if this were a self driving car I wonder what it would have done

So, you would need diversity; two cameras mounting at different angles to avoid the glare. It can still fail, in which case the autopilot should slow down and pull over if possible. To pull over it would need side-looking cameras, the same way a human head turns to look. Or it would need a lidar dome mounted on the car roof-top for 360-deg scans, like Google cars.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by easysurfer But in the meantime I step back and wonder why all this need, quest, lust to replace people with artificial intelligence (AI)? Fitbits, Alexa, future drone deliveries, Virtual Reality to name a few.

Cheaper, better, faster...as always. It can seem to be a double edged sword when a major transition is underway, but in the long run we're all better for it.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExFlyBoy5 Oh yes, and this from an article, "Tesla says it’s not possible to play videos on the 17-inch center stack LCD when the car is moving." Is this fact? I know that there are lots of hacks out there for similar setups that allow you to bypass this. The driver was a tech expert of some sort, so do we *know* that it wasn't bypassed?

If you read more articles, no one claimed the driver was watching a movie on the center display, they found a DVD player in the wreckage. And there are eye witnesses who say there was no movie or sound when they approached the wreckage, while others say they heard the sound track from a Harry Potter movie (I am discounting the involved truck driver's account, as he's not a disinterested party). No one has said they actually saw video playing that I have seen - please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Media reports are often written/headlined to grab your attention, playing with the facts or hearsay. And readers are sometimes off an running...

[ExFlyBoy5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack If you read more articles, no one claimed the driver was watching a movie on the center display, they found a DVD player in the wreckage. And there are eye witnesses who say there was no movie or sound when they approached the wreckage, while others say they heard the sound track from a Harry Potter movie (I am discounting the involved truck driver's account, as he's not a disinterested party). No one has said they actually say video playing that I have seen - please correct me if I'm mistaken. Media reports are often written/headlined to grab your attention, playing with the facts or hearsay.

No, you are absolutely right. I posted before reading the entire article about the portable DVD player.

I found it interesting that Tesla said that if he had impacted the back of the trailer instead of going under, "the crash technology" would have likely saved his life. That's a pretty bold statement to make. I think I will read the actual report and see what's in there. I don't really trust the media to tell the WHOLE story.

[Independent]

I one thing for sure about self-driving cars:

It's a fun topic that generates lots of opinions.
This is number 120 in this one thread in less than three days.