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04-07-2019, 06:06 AM
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#361
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorOldCountryBoy
Having a zero energy commute is also easily done, I'm assuming anyone with some intelligence can figure this out in 2019.
Yeah, it's not 100% due to industrial uses etc, but why the extreme negativity?
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On the zero energy commute, I think that is not possible. Work requires energy in some form. Zero emission? Yes, walk or ride a bike.
As far as the negativity, I think it is merely skepticism. There is so much zealotry and misinformation about green. I am not referring to you or to any poster in this thread, just in general.
I am all for new technologies and better solutions. And using nat gas instead of coal or fuel oil is better- meaning cheaper and cleaner. That is a good standard in my view.
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04-07-2019, 06:14 AM
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#362
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
Work requires energy in some form.
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I’m not sure about that, and remember a couple of guys from work that looked like they got through the workday without exerting one iota of effort or energy at all. Always wondered about that ..
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04-07-2019, 06:46 AM
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#363
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On a hill in the Pine Barrens
Posts: 9,719
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It's very possible to significantly reduce emissions by working remote. Some large companies are very much onboard to supporting employees who telecommute. Even part-time telecommuting reduces the individual cost for purchased energy.
One thing worth mentioning, is that it comes down to an individual decision as to how far one goes in using renewable energy, re-cycling, etc.
The argument that 100% is not achievable does not get in my way. We continue to what is possible now, knowing that many small efforts make a difference.
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04-07-2019, 12:19 PM
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#364
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by target2019
It's very possible to significantly reduce emissions by working remote. Some large companies are very much onboard to supporting employees who telecommute. Even part-time telecommuting reduces the individual cost for purchased energy.
One thing worth mentioning, is that it comes down to an individual decision as to how far one goes in using renewable energy, re-cycling, etc.
The argument that 100% is not achievable does not get in my way. We continue to what is possible now, knowing that many small efforts make a difference.
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I think telecommuting mainly saves time and productivity, which is the idea.
When I work from home, my work office is still open, heated and cooled. No savings. At home, I have to adjust the heat or air since otherwise no one would be home and it is down or off. Net cost and energy use higher. Gas is a saving. Not sure how that nets out.
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04-07-2019, 01:02 PM
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#365
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,727
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Rather than exhibit kinetic energy, those guys probably were full of potential energy, but had not used any of it that day.
__________________
*********Go Yankees!*********
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04-07-2019, 01:21 PM
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#366
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
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A very good Web page about energy storage by Tom Murphy, university professor at UCSD.
I talked earlier about what scale of pumped hydro storage we would need: the Great Lakes. And indeed the need for something that huge would come to the mind of anyone who tries to gauge the scale of the problem. Here's what Tom Murphy wrote:
Quote:
... While we’re having “fun,” let’s see what we could get out of the Great Lakes. The upper four lakes are all at essentially the same elevation (6 meter drop from Superior to Erie), while there is a 99 m drop between Erie and Ontario. We call this Niagra Falls, although only half the drop is developed across the falls proper.
If we drained one meter from every upper lake, we would get 54 billion kWh of energy: about a sixth of the target capacity. If performed over seven days, the flow would be 375,000 cubic meters per second, or 125 times the normal flow over the falls. Now I’d pay to see that! But I would first want to visit every town along the St. Lawrence River one last time.
If we tried to trap the water in Lake Ontario so-as to spare those downstream of the wrath, its level would rise 12 meters (39 feet). Watch out Toronto & Rochester!
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__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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04-07-2019, 01:25 PM
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#367
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
I think telecommuting mainly saves time and productivity, which is the idea.
When I work from home, my work office is still open, heated and cooled. No savings. At home, I have to adjust the heat or air since otherwise no one would be home and it is down or off. Net cost and energy use higher. Gas is a saving. Not sure how that nets out.
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My son-in-law, my niece and her husband all work from home. They do not even have a work office.
Their employers do not have to pay for their office space, and do not even reimburse them for any part of their utility bills.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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04-07-2019, 01:37 PM
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#368
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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Eventually, when we have depleted the earth resources and RE is all that we have, life will be quite different than it is now.
Population most likely decreases. People will abandon locations of extreme climate. Energy usage will be rationed day by day depending on availability. Homes will be a lot smaller, and packed closer together for walking, biking, and using mass transit.
What people like David MacKay and Tom Murphy try to point out is that it is not possible within the realm of science that we know to use RE to maintain the lifestyle that we currently enjoy.
Societies should better start thinking about reducing usage now.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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04-07-2019, 02:25 PM
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#369
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On a hill in the Pine Barrens
Posts: 9,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
I think telecommuting mainly saves time and productivity, which is the idea.
When I work from home, my work office is still open, heated and cooled. No savings. At home, I have to adjust the heat or air since otherwise no one would be home and it is down or off. Net cost and energy use higher. Gas is a saving. Not sure how that nets out.
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I'm not interested in the business side of costs, just my own.
I do pocket an additional 1.5 to 2.0 hours of free time per day when I telecommute.
My drive costs about $5 toll and $20 car depreciation each day. If I bump the heat or A/C cause I'm there (avg $7.75 per day), it is a few dollars per day at most. So the net to me personally is about $20 per day.
As for energy use (the topic), keeping my vehicle off the road makes sense. When you multiply that by 10,000 fewer commuters on a Friday, it really frees up the roadways in the Delaware Valley. I don't know the actual numbers, but it is noticeable on a Friday. Many companies have a flex schedule that leads to a day off every other week, or allow telecommuting as you need it.
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04-07-2019, 08:07 PM
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#370
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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A Tesla solar/powerwall user (CO I think) tweeted this as they hit 100 kWh at a point during the day and were looking forward to the spring/summer season of more sunlight.
The Tesla phone app has some cool displays to shows the interaction of:
Solar to Powerwall or Grid
Home from Powerwall, Grid, or Solar
Obviously, I added anything you see that is purple to the graphic.
Via: https://twitter.com/teslainventory/s...35431559516160
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04-07-2019, 08:59 PM
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#371
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eroscott
A Tesla solar/powerwall user (CO I think) tweeted this as they hit 100 kWh at a point during the day and were looking forward to the spring/summer season of more sunlight....
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Again, totally lacking any meaningful context. Put in enough panels, and you're bound to get 100kWh at some point during the day. So what?
-ERD50
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04-08-2019, 06:38 AM
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#372
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I'd say it is realism, not denial.
Got a link for the net-zero home? I'm sure it can be done, but the devil's in the details.
I guess I have no intelligence. My feeble mind thinks that it takes energy to move something with a non-zero mass, at least that's what Newton says, and I find it best to obey his laws. Tele-commute? I suppose you mean ride a bike (but you will eat more, and growing food takes energy), or solar panels charging an EV? If you aren't already including that in the $20,000 of the net-zero home, that comes at a cost too. And those solar panels could feed the grid instead, so again, devil's in the details.
Show us the way.
-ERD50
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Just got back to this -interesting to see perspectives on energy in general. People generally get discouraged when trying to retrofit the 20th century electric grid to where we need to go. It is as you mentioned a physics thing. The current grid is highly vulnerable (squirrels in transformers are a leading cause of outages), never mind weather or intentional attacks on it. Most of us on this board have some memory of the 1970's and the gasoline lines. I'd like to keep my lights on at a minimum and some ability to move in a car.
I understand your skepticism since 90% of the claims I've read usually fail in terms of economics or engineering. Here are a few items just as food for thought for readers of where we are now or are going:
Commuting:
My bad on the post - I had meant to say "net zero energy", not "zero energy" which means electrification of course. There are lots of luxury options like $50K Tesla hooked to power wall battery, but if you're serious about financial breakeven, the current cost structure demands a used electric car like a $12K Nissan Leaf or $16K Toyota Prius. For me, I'd be willing to pay a few thousand more for the ability to keep moving if a major supply disruption occurs, so for us that would mean spreading bets-one gas powered, one electric, just in case.
99% of all vehicle trips are less than 100 miles, according to the federal highway administration.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinfor...021/fig4_5.cfm
Homes:
Since I know many people who live in these homes already I was a bit surprised at the skepticism on this board. A friend built a home in chilly Vermont that uses solar for both heat and light. The heat is done by using solar hot water to heat thermal mass in the basement. They never have cold floors to walk on. They have lived in the house for 5+years, so apparently it works. Another associate lives in a much more elaborate net zero home but I'd call that a "green bling" home ($400K or so to build) which is more of a fashion statement vs. economic, but even that was only 20% higher than local construction of a regular stick built home where we are. That said, they keep warm and the lights on when the rest of town is in blackout mode. That's worth something, and no electric or heating oil bills to pay.
Here's a general article from CNBC:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/home...ng-closer.html
De Young properties, the actual builder featured in the article currently has the following models available. 3532 sq ft, 6br, 4.5 baths big enough for you? Apparently $450K-550K for that model, for those of us trying to downsize there's a 1764 sq ft model for the mid 300Ks. Those are California prices and pretty competitive from what I've seen out there for new development.
https://deyoungproperties.com/floorplans/icon-series/
The major roadblocks to progress are systemic. Centralized power is vulnerable to outages, distributed networks are much more robust. Some more food for thought for those truly interested in a better system:
1. look at DC vs AC appliances - inverters are a weak point and a waster of a small amount of energy. This takes work to do but is useful if you intend to generate solar power-you could eliminate inverters which need replacement every 5-10 years.
2. Storage is still an issue-lead acid batteries are cheap and 100 years old, so no one is advocating them for home use. They need maintenance (water in the cells) so that will eliminate many from trying this. The best options now are still lithium ion with fancy monitoring so people don't burn their homes down.
3. Solar hot water has been a profitable payback for decades. If you're going to do one thing, this is it.
4. Geothermal (i.e. swamp cooler) heat pumps are the next most profitable. You get heat and air conditioning benefits until you hit extreme weather (below zero and above 90), then you need a backup.
To use a real world example, when we moved into our current home in 2005, we cut the electricity bill by 30% by retrofitting lighting, insulation, and harnessing the passive solar potential of the home. It is a passive solar design and we get the inside up to 78 degrees on cold sunny February days just by having a home designed to maximize solar gain. We installed a pool and the pump runs a lot in the summer so we're not suffering by any means.
If we stay in our current home we would retrofit a couple geothermal units. They would supply 80% of our heat and all of our air conditioning, but I'd still want a backup of some sort. We have a wood stove for atmosphere not heating, but would rather replace that with one or two two propane gas fireplaces as a the fanciest way to back up the heat and add another creature comfort. The fireplaces would be about $2000-2500 each.
We have gotten estimates for solar electric systems but have 2 roadblocks currently. One is the electric box will need to be switched out (about $2K expense) and the other is we'd need to use ground mounted systems for another $5-6K additional expense) due to snow loads. And the garage is shaded so the solar vehicle would need ground mounts for 50% of the panels to do it cheapest. That said, over the last 10 years the cost for installing these systems have plummeted from $35K to about $24K before any tax credits etc. So it's getting there even in our case.
Of course the older we get the better the sunbelt looks, so we are looking to move south of here, and long term investment in this house seems not the best option at this point for us.
For those still reading this long boring post (hee hee):
For additional homework, keep an eye on something called software defined electricity (SDE). It is an emerging technology that has the potential to make the flow of electricity digital versus the current analog system. If fully implemented tomorrow, it could reduce the nations electric load by 1/3 as well as radically extend the life of many electrical items. It removes all the analog noise from electric waves in real time and optimizes them. Think of the noise as heat/energy loss and reduced lifespan of electric components.
Note, this is very early technology but my electrical engineer friends say it is not pixie dust and magic, it is possible. It will need decades to roll this out if it is scalable. First uses would be places like large computer server farms for a quick payback. One company leading the charge is 3dfs:
https://3dfs.com/
Hope this helps explain my optimism. The old folks when I was a kid were skeptical about cars, telephones and electricity. I guess it's part of the life stages we are at? I still like to think I'm about 20 in spite of what the mirror tells me
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04-08-2019, 07:00 AM
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#373
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound
My son-in-law, my niece and her husband all work from home. They do not even have a work office.
Their employers do not have to pay for their office space, and do not even reimburse them for any part of their utility bills.
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That is fine, but it is a different point than the one I was responding to.
Having said that, do you really think people working at home are using less energy than people in offices? How so?
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04-08-2019, 07:04 AM
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#374
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by target2019
I'm not interested in the business side of costs, just my own.
I do pocket an additional 1.5 to 2.0 hours of free time per day when I telecommute.
My drive costs about $5 toll and $20 car depreciation each day. If I bump the heat or A/C cause I'm there (avg $7.75 per day), it is a few dollars per day at most. So the net to me personally is about $20 per day.
As for energy use (the topic), keeping my vehicle off the road makes sense. When you multiply that by 10,000 fewer commuters on a Friday, it really frees up the roadways in the Delaware Valley. I don't know the actual numbers, but it is noticeable on a Friday. Many companies have a flex schedule that leads to a day off every other week, or allow telecommuting as you need it.
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I made the same point. You have to consider total energy savings: home, office and commute. Telecommuters are saving time and productivity. They are no saving the planet AFAIK.
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04-08-2019, 07:22 AM
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#375
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorOldCountryBoy
.... I understand your skepticism since 90% of the claims I've read usually fail in terms of economics or engineering. Here are a few items just as food for thought for readers of where we are now or are going:
Commuting:
My bad on the post - I had meant to say "net zero energy", not "zero energy" which means electrification of course. ...
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This still makes no sense, which is making it harder for me to want to put forth any effort to take you seriously. In what (Newtonian) world would an 'electrified' commute use "net zero energy"?
Do you mean " net zero energy from the grid"? If so, you should say that, so we can follow along w/o trying to translate. Even so, that's a twisted phrase that has no big-picture meaning. I'll go out on a limb and assume you mean an 'electrified net zero energy from the grid' means powering an EV from a solar panel? Well, the big-picture shell game there is that if you didn't drive an EV, those solar panels would be putting their energy back into the grid, offsetting some fossil fuel plant output. Now if you re-direct it to your commute, that fossil power plant has to kick back on to replace the solar power you were giving it. You see, that 'electrified commute' runs mostly on fossil fuel.
And if you are going to make a post that mocks our intelligence (against forum rules BTW), you really ought to make sure your post doesn't have errors in it like that. Bad form. Very bad form.
I may take a link at your 'Homes' section later, but the above has reduced my expectations that it would be a worthwhile use of my time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorOldCountryBoy
....
1. look at DC vs AC appliances - inverters are a weak point and a waster of a small amount of energy. This takes work to do but is useful if you intend to generate solar power-you could eliminate inverters which need replacement every 5-10 years. ...
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Another example that you really don't know what you are talking about.
DC appliances would not eliminate the need for the electronics which would be equivalent to an inverter. True, no DC-AC conversion is required, but that doesn't change things overall. I suggest you read up on MPPT (Max Power Point Tracking) algorithms for solar panels, which are required to maximize the power output of solar. The short version is that MPPT varies the load on a solar panel, while tracking the power output, and adjust the load until it's just right. Too much load and the voltage drops too far, too light a load and the current drops too far. Power is Volts x Amps. The electronics to do that is pretty much the same as an inverter. And, it relies pretty heavily on a grid to adjust its output power dynamically - now what if everyone did that?
Yes, you would eliminate the AC-DC conversion is some appliances, but most large loads are motors, which do just fine on AC. And you would need to do DC-DC conversion on other devices anyhow, to match voltages (computers run on low voltages internally), so probably little to no gain anyhow.
Oh, and I'll let you read up on the issues with DC switches - NW-Bound has posted some good videos on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorOldCountryBoy
....
3. Solar hot water has been a profitable payback for decades. If you're going to do one thing, this is it. ...
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Fine, yet I pay only ~ $20/month for the natural gas to heat my water. So @ $240/year, the payback on solar water heating might not be too bad, but I live in N IL, so I need a more complex system that can handle freezing temperatures. And unless it is big enough to provide all my hot water during a week of overcast, cold weather, I still need a water heater.
So if that's the "one thing" I should do, it isn't making a strong case for how great/easy this is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorOldCountryBoy
.... Hope this helps explain my optimism. ...
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Yes, it does. Like most people who say this large scale RE is easy, well, it does seem easy if you don't actually understand the problems, and just hand-wave every obstacle.
No, that's another false-logic statement the fans make. "Some people" being skeptical of an emerging technology that became successful does not equate with all skepticism being wrong. And it certainly doesn't mean that skepticism by some indicates that technology will be a success. But does it make you feel better?
That's enough for now.
-ERD50
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04-08-2019, 08:00 AM
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#376
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On a hill in the Pine Barrens
Posts: 9,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecfo
I made the same point. You have to consider total energy savings: home, office and commute. Telecommuters are saving time and productivity. They are no saving the planet AFAIK.
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I'm not trying to save the planet. really. Just trying to have less impact. With less autos on the road...the reduction of dependence on oil products, pollution, etc. is ok by me.
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04-09-2019, 03:54 PM
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#377
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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Just saw reference to the Tesla Powerwall 'Storm Watch' Mode on twitter. A user in FL stated their Powerwall recognized a weather event coming and automatically entered into 'Storm Watch'. Great automation idea that the users do not have to think about as the system handles it. Seems like a useful general idea that all these types of systems would/should have.
Here is what the Tesla website says about that.
Quote:
Storm Watch
When a storm or severe weather is on the horizon, increasing the likelihood of a utility power outage, Powerwall triggers Storm Watch. This mode automatically charges Powerwall to maximum capacity so it can provide backup power.
The Tesla app notifies customers that Powerwall has activated Storm Watch. The mode remains active until the weather event ends, at which time the system returns to its previously selected mode.
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04-24-2019, 02:58 PM
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#379
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totoro
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Honestly, i didn't read it. Skimming would be a dishonest word as well. While I'm sure the authors believe every word. It seems to me there is too much "and then, such and such is invented, improved, redesigned, made more efficient, etc." Wishing it were so doesn't make it so. A fundamental change of this magnitude doesn't happen by itself. Only a world government could even attempt it (I'm trying to avoid using the term "at the point of a gun" but it's difficult to believe folks would voluntarily change their entire way of doing things without "force" of some kind - for examples, think IRS.)
I'm all for reducing, recycling, reusing, decluttering, efficiency, lowering carbon foot print, etc. etc. I just don't think there is one road map to do it (especially not in 30 years.) I'm absolutely NO expert (talk to ERD50 for that) but I think I know human nature enough to know that this would be like herding cats to accomplish - if it would even work. BUT, YMMV.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -
Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
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04-28-2019, 07:44 PM
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#380
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 528
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I noticed Zillow has an option for a solar evaluation number for EACH home. So if you look up a house you can expand and click the URL which will pass all the parms to the sunnumber website:
https://www.sunnumber.com/
Roof assessment: Sun Number measures your roof, calculating the pitch, orientation, and size of each roof plane.
+
Solar radiation: Sun Number calculates the amount of solar radiation for every square meter of your roof.
=
Sun Number: We add in local factors and compute your home’s Sun Number score that will range between 0 – 100.
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