Student Loan Crisis
- Thread starter Hopeful
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Did I miss something? Did these kids and their parents have a gun pointed at them that forced them to take out loans? Didn't they agree to pay back money LENT to them? If I - as a taxpayer - am now being asked to help fund their defaulting on loans, what recourse do I have? How many of these non-payers actually tried to pay down their loans? How many stayed in class and partied at least a little less knowing that they would need to get a job and pay back those loans eventually? How many partied, never graduated but still have loans and are now looking to me to bail them out?
I genuinely have zero compassion on this issue, at the very least until I hear some comments about personal responsibility and what the people who owe these loans plan to do to pay their........fair share.
I genuinely have zero compassion on this issue, at the very least until I hear some comments about personal responsibility and what the people who owe these loans plan to do to pay their........fair share.
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Okay, call me a curmudgeon but I'm with him.
Actually, all of them. Most of the “forgiveness” programs are for people that work in certain professions, such as nursing, and in areas that are under serviced. Student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, and inability to pay does not qualify for simple forgiveness.
The Social Security Pension can also be garnished to repay federal student loans.
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haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
But the students are mostly interested 1)in the sex available and 2) how hard it is to get an acceptable grade.
Ha
There is a program called PSLFP. Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. One must make 120 qualifying monthly payments before applying. The person must be employed full time by a government organization, not for profit organization that is tax exempt, or serving in the Peace Corps.
CardsFan
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
In most respects, I agree with you. If you take a loan, you pay the loan. If you took a loan for a degree that has no chance of getting the money to pay the loan, you STILL pay the loan. Its no different than buying a car and wrecking it 2 days later. You still owe the money.
But I think MichaelB and others have pointed out that if the Universities had skin in the game, then maybe they would a be little more careful about the cost of a semester, who gets a loan, and whether the degree can justify the cost.
In no way do I advocate forgiving past loans, but maybe we can fix the future by making a change now.
mh
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
I suspect a lot of it has to do with automation ( pun intended ) of parts fabrication and final construction.
exnavynuke
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
I love how people like to compare the "base price" over the years and ignore everything else about it. The average "net price" (after taking into account public grants and scholarships, but not private scholarships) for a year of public college in the US was $13,400 in 2017 (data from the National Center for Education Studies). Now, don't get me wrong, that's quite a bit of money, and a 4-year degree going to an average public university would thus cost over $60k, but you can pay for that working part time at McDonald's people...
The average graduating student loan balance is a whopping $3x,xxx, not 6-figures. That also doesn't include those who graduate with no loans at all, so really it's quite a bit lower than that. Getting a degree that likely increases earning power by a significant percentage, with no student loan debt or, if you choose a more expensive school/don't get any assistance/don't choose to work to pay for it, end up with an average debt about the price of a nicely optioned mid-sized sedan doesn't seem that outrageous to me.
Of course, if the kid wants to go private or to an out of state school and thus voluntarily chooses to triple (or more) the costs of their education, I'm also not going to feel sorry for them since they made that choice and "tuition alone is 3-4 times as much" is a concept I think anyone intelligent enough to get into college should be smart enough to grasp.
The average graduating student loan balance is a whopping $3x,xxx, not 6-figures. That also doesn't include those who graduate with no loans at all, so really it's quite a bit lower than that. Getting a degree that likely increases earning power by a significant percentage, with no student loan debt or, if you choose a more expensive school/don't get any assistance/don't choose to work to pay for it, end up with an average debt about the price of a nicely optioned mid-sized sedan doesn't seem that outrageous to me.
Of course, if the kid wants to go private or to an out of state school and thus voluntarily chooses to triple (or more) the costs of their education, I'm also not going to feel sorry for them since they made that choice and "tuition alone is 3-4 times as much" is a concept I think anyone intelligent enough to get into college should be smart enough to grasp.
+1/ going in state to college is the way to go. Even if the family doesn't qualify for financial aid, if the student has the grit and determination the student can hustle and work part time during the school year, full time during the summer time as an example. It can be be done, I did it / instead of complaining about being in debt and hanging out with the lazy crowd. Another option is going ROTC, free ride but the Armed Forces own you for the next several years after graduation.
I disagree. The price for tuition and fees at my local State U. is $14k (10 times what I paid in 1982). The starting wage at McDonald's in my city is $9.00 and they're hiring
Do the math. It takes 777 hours of work (not counting for taxes) to pay for one semester. Even working full time, you don't make enough to pay for school, pay for books, pay rent, pay for food etc. I don't believe that most students can work 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year and take 30 hours of classes and do well. When I was in school, the nut I needed to cover was $700 + books and I earned ~$3.75/Hr. Back then I only needed to work < 200 hours to pay for a semester of school and books. The math tells us that it is four times harder for a student to work their way through school today than it was for me. And one more thing, my $700 tuition allowed me take as many credit hours as I could carry, but today's $7,000 tuition only pays for 12 hours. So to be a true comparison I need to look up the cost to take 3 more hours a semester because it takes 120 credits to graduate (15 x 8, not 12 x 8).
Now, can students be smart about their education? Sure. They can take core classes at community colleges, live at home, attend a state school, work part time, and graduate with as little debt as possible. I tend to agree that the money is too easy to get and kids that age just have no way to conceptualize paying off $20k - $30k of debt. I know that last part is true from conversations I've had with a few of the younger workers at my mega-corp.
ncbill
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Again, in many states joining the National Guard will waive tuition & fees at public, in-state schools.
That's what our youngest would have done had they not received a last-minute ROTC scholarship to their $$$ private school.
That's what our youngest would have done had they not received a last-minute ROTC scholarship to their $$$ private school.
marko
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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I have no dog in this fight but the McDonald's comment aside, I was a bit surprised on the upside that a local, public college degree could be as low as $60K. Not peanuts of course, but not the crippling $150K debt that everyone seems to mention.
I'd guess that a bit of savings/PT work, some minor scholarships/mom-dad help and one could take on maybe $5K of debt a year and graduate with a $20K nut equal to a car payment.
As noted, if you want to go to a big school, out of state with room and board involved, it's a different situation but that's one's choice.
Yes, state school in my day was about $1000 a year (IIRC) but gasoline was 25 cents and a good salary was $10,000 a year and yes, the cost of college has increased for a number of reasons beyond simple inflation, but still......
A dent into the student loan crisis is to live at home for several years following graduation and working in commuting distance, take on a part time job on your weekends, and/or drive Uber to pay off the student loans. And don't think about starting a family until you have this in check. If the average starting salary is 40k a year for college graduates as an assumption, you can't pay off the student loan debt before age 30?
ExFlyBoy5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Well, if the click bait articles told the truth, then there wouldn't be anything for people to "click" and get outraged about!
gooddog
Recycles dryer sheets
There seems to be a shift in mentality from the past to today. It used to be that kids would work and pay for college - I did for three separate degrees. Are expectations different today, is the younger generation thinking that they shouldn't be expected to work during college? It certainly makes life a bit tougher for those years, but all of us who worked while pursing degrees are the better for it IMO.
Beststash
Full time employment: Posting here.
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Times have certainly changed
I finished undergrad degree in '72 at a public university - worked at university medical records 3-11 shift and graduated debt free. I even sold blood (plasma program) to buy books a few times. Went for grad degrees using corp tuition refund program. Things have changed a lot. For profit public universities are the norm these days. Another thing I noticed going to school as an adult was the course requirements seemed dramatically less stressful than it was when I was an undergrad straight out of HS. If you attended you pretty much passed. My undergrad experience was totally different. We would all anxiously wait for our grades to be posted just to see if we made it or not. I had several profs that only gave A's to a set number of people regardless.
Admittedly it could have been that I was more interested in girls, etc. in undergrad than I was later as an adult but my grad school experience seemed extremely easy
I finished undergrad degree in '72 at a public university - worked at university medical records 3-11 shift and graduated debt free. I even sold blood (plasma program) to buy books a few times. Went for grad degrees using corp tuition refund program. Things have changed a lot. For profit public universities are the norm these days. Another thing I noticed going to school as an adult was the course requirements seemed dramatically less stressful than it was when I was an undergrad straight out of HS. If you attended you pretty much passed. My undergrad experience was totally different. We would all anxiously wait for our grades to be posted just to see if we made it or not. I had several profs that only gave A's to a set number of people regardless.
Admittedly it could have been that I was more interested in girls, etc. in undergrad than I was later as an adult but my grad school experience seemed extremely easy
copyright1997reloaded
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Data point: I have students that fail in just about every class section I teach. This isn't because I want to, it is because they aren't doing the work required (which is much more than just showing up in class. There has been absolutely no input or influence from administration on how many of what kind of grades I am to give (if there were, I would be back to the RE part of FIRE). This is in a public school (community college) teaching STEM subjects. On the other hand, I would love to have all my students in a section earn an A and would have no problem giving the whole class A's in that situation. [My motto is that it is better to fail the class than to get fired because you don't understand how to perform on the job.]
However, i did have a friend who is quite knowledgeable on high priced liberal arts colleges who was surprised when I mentioned that (some) students get failing grades -- and I was surprised when told that giving a failing grade in these places was frowned upon. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.
I can remember...
Being injured at work, and home for a few months. I couldn’t do much, so I watched a lot of TV and read — odd habit, but I read with the TV on, or I simply fall asleep.
I think it was 2005-ish. I saw a LOT of ads for simply predatory student loans. They were encouraging people to apply to cover tuition, books and supplies, housing and food, and by the way, don’t you need a car? You can use this money to buy a car. And it was way more than one company.
And all the professional schools talking about the loans to become a pharmacy tech. Or a vet tech. At far higher costs than going to community college to get the same degree.
When I had school loans, they went to the Bursar, and it went for tuition, dorm fees and mess. And if you saw the food, you’d know why they call it a mess. I had to work and pay for my own books and supplies and clothes.
If there was a refund, I wasn’t told about it — wouldn’t have taken it, either.
But about a year after seeing those ads I stated hearing about loans going bad, schools going out of business, “degrees” that weren’t worth the paper they were printed on...
Count me in as one who thinks a college education is never a waste. Graduated with a degree in advertising, and never once used it, but the thought processes taught helped us run our own business for 21 years.
Being injured at work, and home for a few months. I couldn’t do much, so I watched a lot of TV and read — odd habit, but I read with the TV on, or I simply fall asleep.
I think it was 2005-ish. I saw a LOT of ads for simply predatory student loans. They were encouraging people to apply to cover tuition, books and supplies, housing and food, and by the way, don’t you need a car? You can use this money to buy a car. And it was way more than one company.
And all the professional schools talking about the loans to become a pharmacy tech. Or a vet tech. At far higher costs than going to community college to get the same degree.
When I had school loans, they went to the Bursar, and it went for tuition, dorm fees and mess. And if you saw the food, you’d know why they call it a mess. I had to work and pay for my own books and supplies and clothes.
If there was a refund, I wasn’t told about it — wouldn’t have taken it, either.
But about a year after seeing those ads I stated hearing about loans going bad, schools going out of business, “degrees” that weren’t worth the paper they were printed on...
Count me in as one who thinks a college education is never a waste. Graduated with a degree in advertising, and never once used it, but the thought processes taught helped us run our own business for 21 years.
One problem I noticed is that FAFSA (the student loan organization) will not give independent students their independence for financial aid purposes if they are under age 24. This has not always been the case, and was not when I was in school. Back in the day, if you weren't declared on your parents' taxes and filed a year of your own taxes, you were considered independent. I took a year off after HS and worked to take care of myself before going to school. Therefore, my low taxable income put me in a different bracket for financial aid when I did go to school. Evidently this is no longer true.
This policy effectively ties the student to their parents for financial aid to 25 years old, and forces the family to be 'responsible' for the education instead of the student. This makes college much more expensive for all students, even those who would choose to be independent and work to live and pay for their own school. They can only qualify for financial aid on the basis of their parents' income. This seems totally unfair and makes the student loan problem worse than it should otherwise be because the cost of college is the one thing that seems to vary with income (in a positive correlation).
This policy effectively ties the student to their parents for financial aid to 25 years old, and forces the family to be 'responsible' for the education instead of the student. This makes college much more expensive for all students, even those who would choose to be independent and work to live and pay for their own school. They can only qualify for financial aid on the basis of their parents' income. This seems totally unfair and makes the student loan problem worse than it should otherwise be because the cost of college is the one thing that seems to vary with income (in a positive correlation).
ncbill
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Veterans are an exception - for both FAFSA and CSS/Profile they are considered independent.
IIRC, the Army still offers 2-year (active, several years' reserve also required) enlistments for certain MOS's w/ 80% GI Bill benefits.
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I do not know a lot about education costs in other states, but attending a state school is normally very reasonable. If a student starts to save when a junior in high school and works summers and works while in school, they should be able to get through school with no, or minimal student loan debt. The problem is, there are a ton of personal decisions along the way. You have to work and save with a purpose. You have to choose a school that offers reasonable tuition. You have to get in to school, and graduate on time and you have to be willing to work your way through school to help pay for it. Most Universities have jobs that are available through the financial aid program that pay pretty well and have time to do your school work while you work. It takes planning and effort but it can be done. The problems lies in not making those choices, going to expensive schools, accruing large debt and starting out in a deep hole.
I work in Engineering and there has been a shortage of Engineers for decades. When we hire, we look for talent of course. Very seldom to we care what school the engineer went to.
Make reasonable choices and get an education and get to work. At the University of Wyoming, our only 4 year school. Tuition, fees and books for a year (30 hours) is only $7k. With room and board it is about $18k a year. I would assume most states have a state school with similar costs.
This is the starting point. Quit letting the borrowers play victim. They made the decision to borrow. Most have large car payments etc too, instead of driving something they can pay for with cash. Keeping up with the Joneses, when you are not a Jones, can be painfull.
Stop the federal government from guaranteeing the school loans. Once that happens and loans have to be earned by credit rating, schooling plan and ability to repay, it will be harder to get deep in debt. This will make it tough for some to go to school. Higher priced schools will need to reduce cost because the demand has decreased.
