The Electric Vehicle Thread

[NW-Bound]

I would be much more impressed when someone can build an electric car, truck, or SUV that can tow a modest travel trailer for 300+ miles between charges.

Right now, that requires a 3x increase in battery capacity. There's nothing in sight in battery development that promises that.

This means my expectation of owning an electric pickup has been damped off.

[Car-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound I would be much more impressed when someone can build an electric car, truck, or SUV that can tow a modest travel trailer for 300+ miles between charges. Right now, that requires a 3x increase in battery capacity. There's nothing in sight in battery development that promises that. This means my expectation of owning an electric pickup has been damped off.

I didn't realize (didn't really think about) EV's having such a limitation, so I learned sometime new here today... Makes sense though. Just another compromise folks have to make/consider when going to EV.

[Midpack]

Of course there's an impact on range/cost per mile with all vehicles while towing, so for some comparison.

Quote:

Based on the statistics pulled from the vehicle, the Model Y was at 45% efficiency while towing the boat. That is less than half of the range a driver would normally get while not towing a boat. It was a bit cold during this trial (64 degrees Fahrenheit/18 degrees Celsius), which also could have impacted the range. With the efficiency at 45%, that’s a pretty big difference. Many ICE vehicles will get about 20% to 40% loss of efficiency.

Doesn't address the difference in EV charging versus gasoline refueling convenience. And admittedly there are ICE vehicles that can tow 300+ miles. FWIW

[Car-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack . Doesn't address the difference in EV charging versus gasoline refueling convenience. FWIW

And "IMO" that's one of the biggest issues they need to fix.... YMMV

I once towed another car (on a trailer) with my pickup from central Texas to central Florida... About a 1000 mile trip and drove it straight through... I remember averaging about 10mpg while towing the trailer/car.... I made several extra fueling stops on that trip but I never felt I lost much time. IMO, that just wouldn't have been practical in an EV...

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Ugh! That could be a big problem for a utility vehicle. ... For that Happier Camper, this was what they reported: Quote: Day One Summary: Drive distance: 217 miles Total time: 8 hours, 9 minutes (5 hours, 2 minutes driving; 3 hours, 7 minutes charging) Effective travel speed: 26.6 mph Average consumption: 555 Wh/mi Ugh! ....

So it really is that bad. Anything other than local towing just isn't realistic for these EVs (but again, not sure what % of truck buyers tow like that).

Another efficiency factor is wind resistance. Tesla has been very attentive to reduce air drag on their cars to maximize range, but that gets thrown out the window with these trailers. So for a regular truck, with poor drag to begin with, the added drag from the trailer isn't such a large percentage increase in power required.

And if the range is less than 150 miles, how do you manage to get to a charging station when towing in some desolate area? They'd need to be spaced much closer than 150 miles to handle normal variations in usage.

-ERD50

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Car-Guy And "IMO" that's one of the biggest issues they need to fix.... YMMV

Unfortunately, that's also the toughest issue. It is far easier to put in a beefier motor for faster acceleration, and to get the media and public attention. Not just Tesla, but so many other EVs makers compete with each other about acceleration.

On the battery side, I will share something I observe with consumer-grade lithium cells, particularly the 18650 size which was used in Tesla cars until the Model 3 which switched to a larger size.

Right now, you can buy an 18650 cell that stores a bit more than 3Ah, but can withstand only a maximum current discharge of 6A or even lower at 3A. This means at the max rate you will deplete the cell in 1/2 hour to 1 hour.

Or you can buy the cell of the same physical size, but can store only 2Ah or less. However, the cell can support a current discharge as high as 20A. This means you can use a burst of power at a rate that depletes the cell in 1/10 hour, or 6 minutes.

The 1st type of cell is what used in electronic devices such as laptops. The 2nd type of cell is used in power tools such as cordless drills, saws, blowers, etc... And you cannot use the 1st type in power tools even though they store more energy. They would blow up.

The different characteristics of the energy cells and the power cells come from their internal construction. It involves tradeoffs, as always. The cells at the retail level cost about the same.

EV makers face the same tradeoffs. Do they squeeze out another 50 miles of range, or do they shave off 0.1 sec off the 0-60 acceleration?

Why not do both? Eh, that would be harder, and the technology improvement takes time. We have to be patient.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack Of course there's an impact on range/cost per mile with all vehicles while towing, so for some comparison. Quote: Based on the statistics pulled from the vehicle, the Model Y was at 45% efficiency while towing the boat. That is less than half of the range a driver would normally get while not towing a boat. It was a bit cold during this trial (64 degrees Fahrenheit/18 degrees Celsius), which also could have impacted the range. With the efficiency at 45%, that’s a pretty big difference. Many ICE vehicles will get about 20% to 40% loss of efficiency. Doesn't address the difference in EV charging versus gasoline refueling convenience. And admittedly there are ICE vehicles that can tow 300+ miles. FWIW

It doesn't? I think it does quite clearly.

In this case (towing), gasoline refueling is far more convenient. Fewer stops, gas stations are more available than chargers, and refueling is much quicker than charging.

What isn't addressed?

Yes, range is reduced for an ICE truck too. But not as much percentage-wise, and with more range to start with, and the speed and availability of re-fueling means that reduction isn't as big a deal anyhow. Just gas up more often.

Sure, charging at home can be considered more convenient than gassing up, but they are talking about towing, away from home. Not practical, let alone convenient for the EV at this time.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack ^^ I saw that. It’s amazing there will be a $130-140K production car that’s faster (quarter mile and 0-60) than ANY other production car ever made - including Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Bugatti, some costing millions! Even with Jay Leno driving (a good driver but not a pro), and he said the air conditioning was on when he did his quarter mile… which

FYI: In the case of the Tesla, I don't think the driver skill enters into it. Just punch the pedal. The control systems maximize power to avoid tire spin. No gears to shift. So no driver skill really required (other than keeping your foot down when being subjected to those G-forces! ).

But yes, EV and lithium batteries are able to provide incredible price/performance when it comes to acceleration. Amazing technology.

-ERD50

[KarlH]

For what its worth, DW and I have never needed to pull a trailer during our 20+ years of marriage. I hear from my brother that he will only drive an SUV/truck for its capacity to "haul stuff", but he never does. I am sure many people need trucks and trailers, but for many more they just like trucks and fall for the marketing that tells them they need that capacity even when they don't.

Trucks are subsidized by a classification as "working" vehicles, giving them an exemption from manufacturer calculations for fleet mileage. It artificially lowers the costs for consumers making them the most popular of vehicles. I had a job that required a truck for years, and it was appropriate, but I never found them comfortable, they get terrible mileage, and I just don't need that.

We selected our EVs based on our needs and they fill them completely. Should I need to haul something, there are always rentals. Overall, the savings from zero fuel, almost zero maintenance vehicles is more than enough to pay for a delivery or a rental truck.

As a side note, most testing of EVs in cold weather suggest a 40% range loss in cold. Towing in cold weather would be a nightmare.

[Car-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlH For what its worth, DW and I have never needed to pull a trailer during our 20+ years of marriage. I hear from my brother that he will only drive an SUV/truck for its capacity to "haul stuff", but he never does. I am sure many people need trucks and trailers, but for many more they just like trucks and fall for the marketing that tells them they need that capacity even when they don't.

When I was a city dweller that would be pretty true for me... It was nice to have to haul something from Home Depot that was to big for a car, about once or twice a year.

But that all changed when I moved to the country. It's almost rare now that I don't need a trucks capabilities at least a couple of times each month. Sometimes I need the 4wd capability. Sometimes it's needed to pull my tandem utility trailer and most often it's used to haul a load more than car or SUV could easily handle... And I still use it for Home Depot runs too.

So yes, it depends.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlH For what its worth, DW and I have never needed to pull a trailer during our 20+ years of marriage. I hear from my brother that he will only drive an SUV/truck for its capacity to "haul stuff", but he never does. I am sure many people need trucks and trailers, but for many more they just like trucks and fall for the marketing that tells them they need that capacity even when they don't. Trucks are subsidized by a classification as "working" vehicles, giving them an exemption from manufacturer calculations for fleet mileage. It artificially lowers the costs for consumers making them the most popular of vehicles. I had a job that required a truck for years, and it was appropriate, but I never found them comfortable, they get terrible mileage, and I just don't need that. We selected our EVs based on our needs and they fill them completely. Should I need to haul something, there are always rentals. Overall, the savings from zero fuel, almost zero maintenance vehicles is more than enough to pay for a delivery or a rental truck. As a side note, most testing of EVs in cold weather suggest a 40% range loss in cold. Towing in cold weather would be a nightmare.

That is all true. But the point of this was just to make people aware that EVs just aren't appropriate for distance towing (at this time). I think many would assume that the efficiency would make them great at towing, but it actually works against them.

-ERD50

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack Of course there's an impact on range/cost per mile with all vehicles while towing, so for some comparison. Doesn't address the difference in EV charging versus gasoline refueling convenience. And admittedly there are ICE vehicles that can tow 300+ miles. FWIW

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 It doesn't? I think it does quite clearly. In this case (towing), gasoline refueling is far more convenient. Fewer stops, gas stations are more available than chargers, and refueling is much quicker than charging. What isn't addressed? Yes, range is reduced for an ICE truck too. But not as much percentage-wise, and with more range to start with, and the speed and availability of re-fueling means that reduction isn't as big a deal anyhow. Just gas up more often. Sure, charging at home can be considered more convenient than gassing up, but they are talking about towing, away from home. Not practical, let alone convenient for the EV at this time. -ERD50

I was acknowledging the disadvantage of EV charging time vs ICE refueling. But thanks for finding another interpretation to critique and tell us what we already know…

[audreyh1]

People charge their EVs at campgrounds no problem.

But personally I don’t plan to tow any more trailers so that is not a constraint.

DH doesn’t like fueling at gas stations. It’s a very unpleasant experience for him.

[NW-Bound]

I am sure there are plenty of people who buy EVs and are happy with them. It's all about what you use them for.

My niece and her husband were thinking about a Tesla. I know that they have a small travel trailer. It's a smaller Burro, about the same size as the Happy Camper tested in the Edmunds report cited above.

So, I asked them if they planned to tow with their future Tesla, and sent them the article. They thanked me for alerting them to this issue, and said they would be looking for something else. They would have been sorely disappointed.

By the way, the long charging time during the Edmunds test drive with the Model X was with Tesla Superchargers. There's still a time limit even with the Superchargers, and that's due to the battery being able to accept only so much current. More powerful chargers would not help.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack I was acknowledging the disadvantage of EV charging time vs ICE refueling. But thanks for finding another interpretation to critique and tell us what we already know…

OK, that wasn't clear from your wording.

-ERD50

[TriumphTR3fan]

Gas prices fluctuate & right now prices are rising. The feds maintain a calculator that lists the average price of a gallon of regular gas & a equivalent amount of electricity. since electricity is usually set by utility commissions it doesn't change as often. It displays the price both nationally & by state. It's updated every 3-4 months. If you're interested they explain their methodology. The most recent update was March 2021 so I expect that when it's updated later this month it will show a larger disparity in price. How does your region compare?

Here is the link: https://www.energy.gov/maps/egallon

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriumphTR3fan Gas prices fluctuate & right now prices are rising. The feds maintain a calculator that lists the average price of a gallon of regular gas & a equivalent amount of electricity. since electricity is usually set by utility commissions it doesn't change as often. It displays the price both nationally & by state. It's updated every 3-4 months. If you're interested they explain their methodology. The most recent update was March 2021 so I expect that when it's updated later this month it will show a larger disparity in price. How does your region compare? Here is the link: https://www.energy.gov/maps/egallon

For IL, the gas/electric ratio is a bit higher. I wish that site was more precise with their wording. Instead of "On average, it costs about half as much to drive an electric vehicle.", it would be more accurate/informative to say something like ""On average, the energy costs per mile for an electric vehicle are about half as much as a gasoline vehicle .".

They also don't say what mpg they are comparing to. If per mile economy is important to you, then choose a high mpg hybrid, and you might find the delta to be less than suggested at that site. Regardless, I think most people know that when charging at home, the per mile 'fuel' cost is typically lower for an EV.

But what about that future scenario? One poster predicted gas stations would be rare in 10 years. That's hyperbole, but if in fact EVs become far more common, and ICEs far less common, the laws of supply/demand suggest that kWh will increase in cost, and gasoline will decrease.

I was curious, found this:

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U.S. Transportation fuel consumption accounts for over 70 percent of total U.S. oil consumption, and more than 65 percent of that amount is for personal vehicles.

So even if big trucks don't convert, the personal vehicles use a lot of petroleum. If that demand was cut by even a third, I'd imagine some significant downward pressure on gasoline prices.

IOW, be careful about using a static model. Conditions change over the long term.

Wouldn't it be ironic if in the future, power companies found it cost effective to burn cheap gasoline in their turbine power plants to power EVs?

-ERD50

[explanade]

The percentage of people who actually need to tow regularly is higher or lower than all those city dwellers who buy AWD cars and go off road regularly?

[audreyh1]

Hard to say, but AWD cars are very useful in snowy and icy road conditions. So that’s one reason people who live in cold weather climates might buy them.

[Car-Guy]

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Originally Posted by audreyh1 Hard to say, but AWD cars are very useful in snowy and icy road conditions.

And rain too!