The Electric Vehicle Thread

[Koolau]

Am amazed at the EV car weights.


2021 Nissan Leaf SL Plus: By the Numbers

• Base price (as tested): $32,620 ($45,630)
• Powertrain: 62-kWh lithium-ion battery | 160 kW motor | 1-speed transmission | front-wheel drive
• Horsepower: 214
• Torque: 250 lb-ft
• Seating capacity: 5
• Cargo volume: 23.6 cubic feet (30. with second row down)
• Curb weight: 3,930 pounds
• Range: Up to 215 miles (226 miles in S Plus trim only)
• Charge time: 11.5 hours @ 240 volts (est.)

My 2012 Cadillac CTS AWD curb weight: Curb Weight-automatic 3924 lbs

I am sure the Caddy is a bit moore roomey than the Leaf. Has roughly a 400 mile range at about 22MPG.

My Buick LeSabre is about 3600 lbs. Is INCREDIBLY roomy and comfortable at 32 mpg (observed at 70+ MPH w/AC) will go 500 miles with an hour reserve - and fills up in 7 minutes with no-lead regular. Still, I am fascinated by EVs. I'd have one on the mainland if I lived there full time - maybe a used Leaf or at least a rechargeable hybrid. YMMV

 

[ncbill]

My Buick LeSabre is about 3600 lbs. Is INCREDIBLY roomy and comfortable at 32 mpg (observed at 70+ MPH w/AC) will go 500 miles with an hour reserve - and fills up in 7 minutes with no-lead regular. Still, I am fascinated by EVs. I'd have one on the mainland if I lived there full time - maybe a used Leaf or at least a rechargeable hybrid. YMMV

Traditional or plug-in hybrids (e.g Prius Prime) remain the best bang for the buck right now.

 

[Spudd]

Traditional or plug-in hybrids (e.g Prius Prime) remain the best bang for the buck right now.

Love my Prius Prime.

 

[Midpack]

Traditional or plug-in hybrids (e.g Prius Prime) remain the best bang for the buck right now.

Most buyers don't agree. Hybrids had their day (we've owned 3), but it's coming to an end.

Hybrids

Toyota sold 69,718 Priuses in the U.S. in 2019, down 20% from the prior year and the fewest since its first year on the market (2004). Prius sales have fallen 71% since peaking at 236,659 in 2012.

PHEV. Tesla Model 3/Y sell more in a quarter than the all the Prius Primes ever made - Prime 1st gen 2012-2016, 2nd gen Nov 2016 thru Apr 2021 ongoing.

The Toyota Prius Prime (actually a 2nd model evolution after the original Prius PHEV) is one of the oldest plug-in models on the market with a total volume approaching 100,000 (probably well over 130,000 including the 1st gen).

 

[ncbill]

Most buyers don't agree. Hybrids had their day (we've owned 3), but it's coming to an end.

Hybrids
PHEV. Tesla Model 3/Y sell more in a quarter than the all the Prius Primes ever made - Prime 1st gen 2012-2016, 2nd gen Nov 2016 thru Apr 2021 ongoing.

Like I said, bang for the buck.

Here in the U.S. unlike Tesla EVs, federal tax incentives are still good for plug-in hybrids...some states add a tax credit that means you could get nearly two Primes for the cost of a Tesla.

And plug-ins recharge overnight with a standard 120VAC extension cord...no need to install a Level 2 charger.

 

[ERD50]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
Traditional or plug-in hybrids (e.g Prius Prime) remain the best bang for the buck right now.

Most buyers don't agree. Hybrids had their day (we've owned 3), but it's coming to an end. ...

I don't think the buying habits support your conclusion that "Most buyers don't agree" that "hybrids (e.g Prius Prime) remain the best bang for the buck right now.".

Both can be true. I think hybrids are a great solution for people looking for high mpg, w/o some of the constraints of an EV. So I can say they provide a lot of bang for the buck. But I'm not going to buy one, because we put such few miles per vehicle per year, it just doesn't make sense on economic, or probably environmental level. So my buying habits don't reflect my "bang for the buck" value judgment, because that "bang for the buck" doesn't apply to me. But I recognize it can, for people who drive more miles.

And a lot of people don't buy based on what provides the "most bang for the buck". That doesn't mean that they do or don't recognize what provides the bang for the buck or not. Many are probably looking more to what suits them, within a price range, regardless of whether it provides "bang for the buck" or not. And that's what sales figures represent.

I doubt that all those pickup truck sales to people who rarely haul anything were based on "bang for the buck".

-ERD50

 

[aldo]

Traditional or plug-in hybrids (e.g Prius Prime) remain the best bang for the buck right now.

MSRP for my 2020 Prius Prime XLE was $30839 (bought in ME, registered in CO in 2019). Credits/rebates totalled $15,252 (Toyota/dealer, $5000; CO, $5000; Feds, $4502; Uber driver, $750). Paid 50.5% of MSRP. Definitely best bang for the buck!

 

[NW-Bound]

And a lot of people don't buy based on what provides the "most bang for the buck"...

I doubt that all those pickup truck sales to people who rarely haul anything were based on "bang for the buck".

-ERD50

But, I think people do buy what they think is best "bang" for their buck.

Their definition of "bang" may differ from yours or mine. It's not always about mpg. For some, it's the most acceleration. For others, it's the macho look.

 

[Chuckanut]

Ummm.... maybe the decline in Prius sales is due to the RAV4 becoming the #1 selling hybrid for Toyota.

 

[NW-Bound]

Ummm.... maybe the decline in Prius sales is due to the RAV4 becoming the #1 selling hybrid for Toyota.

You made me look.

Prius sales in 2020: 43,525
RAV4 hybrid sales : 115,974

 

[Chuckanut]

You made me look.

Prius sales in 2020: 43,525
RAV4 hybrid sales : 115,974

WOW! I knew the RAV4 Hybrid had overtaken the Prius, but I didn't realize it was selling almost three times more vehicles.
Part of the reason might be that the extra cost in the USA for the Hybrid version of the RAV4 was down to about $800 when I bought mine in 2019. That brings the breakeven point much closer.

 

[NW-Bound]

We drive so little nowadays, that it does not even make economic sense to buy a hybrid. Even more, we need something that will be flat-towable behind the motorhome, and that severely limits the choices. So we bought a conventional ICE car.

I hope the early problems of the hybrids with the battery wearing out have been solved, or at least the battery replacement cost is now more reasonable.

My daughter needed a new car. She wanted to buy the Honda Clarity, which is a PHEV. It's only for sale in California, so she settled for the Honda Insight. This is an interesting hybrid, where the ICE engine runs a generator to charge the battery which powers the electric motor. In other words, it is a serial hybrid.

But then, for constant high-speed highway driving, the ICE engine will engage the drive train to drive the car directly, bypassing the electric link to have better efficiency.

She bought the more expensive trim, and has been happy with the 50-mpg gas mileage. With a 10.6-gal tank, that's a 500-mile range.

 

[Amethyst]

High cost of extinguishing electric car battery fire

I find this article (linked below) concerning, in terms of insurance rates for electric cars. The article reports the extremely high cost of putting out a fire caused by a Tesla car battery. "Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...—-and-a-nightmare-for-firefighters/ar-AALePO0

 

[RobLJ]

It was very difficult to find a RAV Prime when we were buying in Feb/March. A later article I read indicated they were the second fastest selling model in the US (the first was the mid-engine Corvette, I think?)
We're very happy with the RAV Prime hybrid for long trips/offroad and long camping into the Nevada/Sierra interior and the Bolt for less than 200 mile trips. For the last 4 months we've taken a lot of long/camping trips, but the Prime is currently at 49.4 mpg (includes the electric miles); obviously the difference in gasoline costs versus the Silverado is shocking, just as the Bolt versus the Forester (took premium) energy costs are shockingly less. And the Prime is very quick (quicker obviously than the Silverado) due to the electric motors.

YMMV. I only took the Silverado offroad about once every month or two and only twice a year on very rough roads, so I've been able to take the Prime (more slowly) everywhere, so far. There are two rutted/bouldered roads I recall we went for hiking that I wouldn't venture with the Prime, though, but I can live with that.

Ummm.... maybe the decline in Prius sales is due to the RAV4 becoming the #1 selling hybrid for Toyota.

 

[Car-Guy]

I find this article (linked below) concerning, in terms of insurance rates for electric cars. The article reports the extremely high cost of putting out a fire caused by a Tesla car battery. "Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/an-electric-car-fire-is-like-a-trick-birthday-candle-%E2%80%94-and-a-nightmare-for-firefighters/ar-AALePO0

Shocking.... Simply shocking...

Looks like it happened in the neighborhood (albeit a really big neighborhood) around where aja8888 lives...

Unfortunate two died in the accident too.

 

[NW-Bound]

I find this article (linked below) concerning, in terms of insurance rates for electric cars. The article reports the extremely high cost of putting out a fire caused by a Tesla car battery. "Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...—-and-a-nightmare-for-firefighters/ar-AALePO0

Shocking.... Simply shocking...

Looks like it happened in the neighborhood (albeit a really big neighborhood) around where aja8888 lives...

Unfortunate two died in the accident too.

That accident was back in April 2021, when two older men took a drive after dinner, and their Tesla ran off the road, hit a tree and burst into flames. Both men were killed.

What's unique here was that one dead man was found in the front passenger seat, and the body of the owner of the car was found in the rear seat. The media quoted some accident investigator as saying there was no possible way the driver would have been bounced from the front seat to the back seat by the impact.

In other words, it was not known how the car was driven. Did the car drive itself? The NTSB got involved, and there's as yet no official report. No doubt, the intense fire did not leave much evidence to help the investigation.

We talked about this accident a bit in the thread about self-driving cars back then.


PS. Even about the fire, initially it was reported that it was difficult to put out. Then, someone quoted a fireman as saying in effect it was no big deal. And now, it is a big deal again. Can't seem to get a consistent story here. Heck, there might even be a conspiracy in here somewhere.

 

[Amethyst]

All I care about is what the insurance companies will make of it.

PS. Even about the fire, initially it was reported that it was difficult to put out. Then, someone quoted a fireman as saying in effect it was no big deal. And now, it is a big deal again. Can't seem to get a consistent story here. Heck, there might even be a conspiracy in here somewhere.

 

[cbo111]

I find this article (linked below) concerning, in terms of insurance rates for electric cars. The article reports the extremely high cost of putting out a fire caused by a Tesla car battery. "Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...—-and-a-nightmare-for-firefighters/ar-AALePO0

Allow me to provide you with some real-world insurance costs of owning an electric car.
I just purchased a Tesla Model Y Long Range. I added it to an existing policy with a 2016 Subaru. The 6-month rate for the Subaru is $380. For the Tesla it is $410. A difference of $30. Not bad for a car that is about $30K more expensive.
Now, granted, I am in my 60's and have a good driving record and credit score. Some may pay more, some less.

 

[NW-Bound]

All I care about is what the insurance companies will make of it.

Are insurance companies liable for the cost of putting out car fires? I don't think so.

How about collateral damages from the fire? Maybe. I am not sure.

As to the cars themselves, cars are declared totaled nowadays for anything more than a bitty fender bender. The cost to repair is so high. Then, it does not matter if the car burns to the ground or not. It's still totaled.

 

[audreyh1]

Apparently that car ran off the road going too fast around the curve, ran over a curb, a culvert and a raised manhole cover before hitting the tree.

The driver was in the his seat.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/05/1...s-raises-questions-about-local-investigation/

The fire chief said that the firemen did not spend a long time putting the initial fire out. Too late for the inhabitants unfortunately.

The initial fire was quickly put out, he said, but the vehicle smoldered and continued to ignite after that, which is why firefighters used a small-diameter hose to keep water running onto the area, to deal with any small flames that started. Pine sap from the trees also caused some flare-ups, Buck said. The bottom of the car, where the battery pack is located, was in contact with the ground, which made it more difficult to get water where it needed to go. When the firefighters finally managed to raise the car, they were also able to stop the chain reaction.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36189237/tesla-model-s-fire-texas-crash-details-fire-chief/

 

[Texas Proud]

Are insurance companies liable for the cost of putting out car fires? I don't think so.

How about collateral damages from the fire? Maybe. I am not sure.

As to the cars themselves, cars are declared totaled nowadays for anything more than a bitty fender bender. The cost to repair is so high. Then, it does not matter if the car burns to the ground or not. It's still totaled.

Wrong on the last stmt....


I am still mad at myself for totaling out my 2004 Acura TL with 6 speed manual... best car I ever owned.... BUT, the insurance did total it but said the totaled car was still worth $4,500.... IOW, if I wanted to keep the car they would deduct that from the check...


A burned up crisp car is worth zero... a big difference...


BTW, my son totaled out an old Elantra and it was 'worth' $1200... since we could not find a car even close to what they said it was worth totaled we took the check and kept the car... since insurance was not paying for it now our repair place was able to buy used parts and put it back together for less than the check we got...

 

[audreyh1]

Ford market research determined that one deterrent to switching to electric vehicles was that:

In a Ford-commissioned survey, 1 in 5 drivers said the smell of petrol is what they’d miss most when swapping to an electric vehicle, with almost 70% claiming they would miss the smell of petrol to some degree. Petrol also ranked as a more popular scent than both wine and cheese, and almost identically to the smell of new books.

So they developed a petrol (gasoline) smell perfume!

Yes, I kid you not!

Ford creates a premium gas fragrance for electric cars in bizarre attempt to help EV adoption

That’s not a joke headline. You are not on the Onion. Ford surveyed drivers and found that most of them would “miss the smell of petrol” if they go electric.

The automaker then came up with a Mach-Eau (get it?) scent to help those drivers transition to electric vehicles.

https://electrek.co/2021/07/15/ford-petrol-scent-for-electric-cars-barrier-ev-adoption/

Over the weekend, Ford unveiled a petrol fragrance for future Mach-E GT owners at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. The Fragrance is called Mach-Eau.

https://www.teslarati.com/ford-mach-e-gt-owners-get-petrol-fragrance/

 

[Koolau]

Ford market research determined that one deterrent to switching to electric vehicles was that:
So they developed a petrol (gasoline) smell perfume!

Yes, I kid you not!

Ford creates a premium gas fragrance for electric cars in bizarre attempt to help EV adoption

https://electrek.co/2021/07/15/ford-petrol-scent-for-electric-cars-barrier-ev-adoption/


https://www.teslarati.com/ford-mach-e-gt-owners-get-petrol-fragrance/

Wow! That is truly bizarre. One of the things I think I would like about EVs would be the LACK of petrol odors (and oil and grease and exhaust.) YMMV

 

[audreyh1]

Wow! That is truly bizarre. One of the things I think I would like about EVs would be the LACK of petrol odors (and oil and grease and exhaust.) YMMV

Exactly! DH absolutely loathes gas stations and any fuel fumes (particularly diesel exhaust) and can’t wait to not have to be around gasoline.

 

[KarlH]

Bizarre.

I can't say we miss the smell of fuel or exhaust. We finally went all-in and replaced the car the teens drive with a used LEAF. We now have 3 EVs with different ranges of around 50, 150, and 300 miles. Most of my driving is around town and I use the 2011 LEAF with only about 50 miles of range.

For the record, the 10 year old EV has a clean carfax, and has been regularly visiting local dealer service. During that period it has only seen the need for tire rotation, wiper blades, cabin air filter, and one set of new tires. These have been listed as the lowest maintenance cost vehicle available, with an annual average (maintenance) cost of $0.

Despite the naysayers, these vehicles are game changers. Even looking at battery replacement for the 10 year old car, a new 65kwh pack will fit in the older vehicle and expand its range to 240 miles. A zero maintenance EV with this range is easily worth a $20k investment.