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01-07-2011, 05:08 PM
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#41
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tryan
...The tenant is disabled...
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Do you know what her disability is?
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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01-07-2011, 05:09 PM
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#42
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunsetSail
This is the key in my opinion. It seems like people who are critical of entitlement programs are attacked on the basis that the critics are selfish and greedy because they don't want to share their money. However, some (hopefully most) are critical of entitlement programs mainly because history has shown that they don't really work in the aggregate at least not at any level of reasonable efficiency.
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I believe your post points out one of the main differences between realists on this type issue, and hopeful hopers.
Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many hopeful hopers they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the liberal outlook seems on the surface to be more loving and less selfish, and thus more attractive on that basis alone.
If a person has spent their life in academia, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.
Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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01-07-2011, 05:10 PM
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#43
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gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound
Do you know what her disability is?
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Well, she's obviously not suffering from stupidmerkin disease...
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01-07-2011, 05:50 PM
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#44
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,603
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No, I don't know what the disability is; I don't doubt the disability. She has trouble walking (and has been truthful with me ... so far).
__________________
FIRE'd since 2005
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01-08-2011, 06:41 AM
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#45
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 11,331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinker25
I agree. But I remember a few years ago, an ongoing story on NPR about a high school (in Chicago?) where they got the parents and kids to buy into the whole education and go to college thing. It was in a very poor neighborhood. Anyhow, the experiment worked. I tried to find it via google but failed. I thought it was Washington Irving HS but apparently not...
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IS this the deal where a philanthropist guaranteed an entire grammar school class (1st grade or kindergarten IIRC) that he would pay their way through college? He kept up with the students for decades and a remarkable number made it through college. Interesting show.
__________________
Idleness is fatal only to the mediocre -- Albert Camus
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01-08-2011, 07:03 AM
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#46
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,244
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I know there is this debate on if this... some seem to try and say 'it is not so, and if it is why would someone not just work for minimum wage'...
But I think this is not a valid argument... I think what the article is trying to show is that there are some very expensive programs out there that do not expire and they have real value... and real costs to society...
Sure, if they had the choice most people would choose the $60K job because it gives them more freedom... they do not have to go to a doc that takes medicaid... they do not have to live in a Sec 8 house... they do not have to deal with the hoops etc (I do not know if this is really a problem or not... maybe it is way to simple) to get these benefits... So I do not think they are saying the person has a 'better life' making minimum wage, just that their disposable income is a lot higher than what one would think...
I also think that it shows how welfare is out there... heck, the benefits this family gets is more than the income.... and if you multiply this times the number of people receiving this aid it has a real cost... and I also think it makes some people not want to improve their lives... it makes a permanent subclass of person...
Now, if we invested the same amount of dollars to improve their skills... so they CAN get a higher paying job... which in turn means more taxes... that to me sounds like a better 'investment'...
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01-08-2011, 07:24 AM
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#47
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Saw this yesterday-
Food Stamp Usage Hits New High Of 43.2 Million | zero hedge
The analysis is tongue in cheek, but the numbers are real. This is 14% of our population.
Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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01-08-2011, 08:41 AM
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#48
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North of Montana
Posts: 2,769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
What about all the stupid people out there?
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Well, a few ended up in executive positions at my former mega-corp.
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There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate conclusions from insufficient data and ..
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01-08-2011, 09:08 AM
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#49
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
I believe your post points out one of the main differences between realists on this type issue, and hopeful hopers.
Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many hopeful hopers they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the liberal outlook seems on the surface to be more loving and less selfish, and thus more attractive on that basis alone.
If a person has spent their life in academia, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.
Ha
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I believe your post points out one of the main differences between the tight-fisted "I-am-an-island" types and the realists on this issue.
Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many tight-fisted isolationists they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the conservative outlook seems on the surface to be "I-got-mine-forget-you", and thus more attractive on that basis alone.
If a person has spent their life thinking that society doesn't affect them, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.
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01-08-2011, 09:10 AM
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#50
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I'll say, the numbers appear to be 'cherry picked' to show the peak of the effect. Some cases may even be worse, many may be better. But if the slope of risk/reward isn't enough to make many people want to get off the programs, you can't expect them to (there will be exceptions of course).
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You acknowledge that your argument is based on cherry picked numbers yet you still continue to make an argument?!? Unbelievable.
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01-08-2011, 09:12 AM
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#51
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chattanooga
Posts: 3,895
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__________________
Earning money is an action, saving money is a behavior, growing money takes a well diversified portfolio and the discipline to ignore market swings.
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01-08-2011, 09:17 AM
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#52
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
I believe your post points out one of the main differences between the tight-fisted "I-am-an-island" types and the realists on this issue.
Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many tight-fisted isolationists they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the conservative outlook seems on the surface to be "I-got-mine-forget-you", and thus more attractive on that basis alone.
If a person has spent their life thinking that society doesn't affect them, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.
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Very cute. Nevertheless, good management manages for desired outputs, not a priori preferred inputs.
A responsible person will always demand proof of both need and efficacy before handing out other people's money.
Also, have you not noticed that your screed is full of non sequiters? How does a person wanting to be responsible about money, his own or what has been taxed away from him and others, equate to thinking that society does not affect him? Only a fool could think that. Unfortunately, much of the way that society affects us is overall negative to our well being.
Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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01-08-2011, 09:18 AM
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#53
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
Very cute. Nevertheless, good management manages for desired outputs, not a priori preferred inputs.
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Exactly.
Quote:
A responsible person will alwys demand proof of both need an efficacy before handing out other people's money.
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Yeah, there's plenty of proof in this thread all right.
Quote:
Also, have you not noticed that your screed is full of non sequiters?
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I'll try and take out your non-sequiters the next time I mock one of your posts.
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01-08-2011, 09:23 AM
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#54
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,746
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That's it! I'm going to save for a few more years and then quit working and get a bunch of government benefits! Will post a thread. Guess it's time for me to switch my Party affiliation to the one lining up the handouts for me.
(and glad to see porky pig isn't here quite yet!)
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (8, 13, and 15).
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01-08-2011, 09:29 AM
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#55
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO
That's it! I'm going to save for a few more years and then quit working and get a bunch of government benefits! Will post a thread. Guess it's time for me to switch my Party affiliation to the one lining up the handouts for me.
(and glad to see porky pig isn't here quite yet!)
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It's obviously better to do it now if you're making a purely economically rational decision.
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01-08-2011, 09:51 AM
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#56
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Exactly.
Yeah, there's plenty of proof in this thread all right.
I'll try and take out your non-sequiters the next time I mock one of your posts.
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You may not have much to say, but I must admit that you say it very cleverly.
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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01-08-2011, 10:26 AM
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#57
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,228
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Aside from the inflammatory language in the article (minimum wage earners are ripping off the middle class) , the chart in the article the OP posted is misleading. For example, it assumes that the person making $60,000 a year gets no benefits. No health insurance. No nothing other than wages. It also assumes a level of taxes that is extremely unlikely for a family of four. The medicaid assumptions for the $14,000 and $30,000 earner are also questionable and vary from state to state. The use of the words "disposable income" is incorrect. He also gos back and forth between family of three and family of four so it is hard to know exactly what kind of family he is talking about. He mentions SSI and then doesn't say why. All in all, poorly written.
The worst thing about being poor is the way you are treated. There is no rule more iron, in my experience, that the less you get paid, for example, the worse you will be treated at work. Clerks in stores treat you worse. Government bureaucrats can often barely conceal their contempt. And so on. Ian Welsh: Disrespecting the Poor
Anyone who believes the poor don't try hard enough hasn't seen the guys on Chicago street corners in sub-zero weather selling everything from Streetwise to socks to dashboard ornaments. They haven't talked to ex-felons who've filled out more than 40 job applications--and keep going despite receiving rejection after rejection. Single moms raising a family on a minimum wage-income may be the hardest-working people in America--but no one ever talks about them that way.Alden Loury: Why Do We Hate the Poor?
__________________
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No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA
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01-08-2011, 12:12 PM
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#58
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Add to this that the conservative outlook seems on the surface to be "I-got-mine-forget-you", and thus more attractive on that basis alone.
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It might appear that way on the surface, but in reality the outlook is more, "I-got-mine-you-can-get-yours-too."
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
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01-08-2011, 12:17 PM
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#59
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 939
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Zynga
__________________
I used to be “Thinker25” here. Retired at 62, now 73 (in 2021), no regrets & single again. I love it. I’m in RI.
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01-08-2011, 12:48 PM
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#60
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO
And many of the non-taxable benefits of the 60k job are also appealing. 401k matches, vacation time, paid holidays, training, professional development, etc.
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What would a person working 1 week per month need with vacation time? And every day is a "paid holiday". And as far as training and professional development--hey, the person apparently has all the training they need. And a 401K is for suckers who want to support themselves--ya never need one if the money cow doesn't dry up.
But there are costs that aren't shown for the "take the welfare" route. A lot of standing in lines, filling in forms, putting up with delayed checks, and, most of all, having very little control over some pretty important aspects of your life. It would make me crazy, but there are people who aren't bothered by it.
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