The “not my problem” mindset is a problem.

[Midpack]

Never mind...everything is wonderful and getting better every day.

 

[ERD50]

My opinion? A bunch of revisionist, cherry-picked, chicken little, hooey.

These same people would have been waxing poetic about the buggy whip shop closing a hundred years ago. I recall some famous news story from the 60s (50's?) of people in NY passing by someone who was being beaten in public, and no one even tried to find a cop. There were atrocities all through the ages. Are things really that different now?

We don't have sweat shops of the kind we had back then. And coal mines, while still dangerous are far safer than ever. This writer would have you believe the coal mine operators of the past were all benevolent, altruistic business owners who really cared about their employees over profit, and CEOs today are all soulless tyrants.

If people want to believe this, they can find writers to agree with them.

What's the difference between self-interest and selfishness?

Adam Smith: It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.


-ERD50

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

This is much too philosophical for me.

 

[ERD50]

Citizenship has been crowded out by the market and the state. Nowadays, too many people think of their responsibilities of citizenship as limited to mainly basic compliance with the law, or perhaps jury duty and voting – though only half of us even vote.

Yet, today we have a volunteer military.

Voting rates don't look that different from the past. They were higher in the last half of the 1800's, but lower and higher for other times. And it looks like we are now higher than almost all of the past 100 years.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

For direct evidence we need examine only our own schools. Somewhere between the one-room schoolhouse of the 19th century and the assembly-line high school of the 20th, Americans came to accept a tacit notion that the walls of the school are to keep kids in and others out. As public education has become more bureaucratized and rule-bound, and the actual work of teaching more test-driven, it’s become easier for parents to drop their children off and check out of the process of education. At the same time, it’s become harder for parents --- or for that matter, neighbors or grandparents or mentors --- to enter the classroom and become a truly integrated part of the schooling experience, let alone to improve the actual quality of the school.

What does that mean?

Was the one room school house really more open to outsiders? I imagine those parents were off working the fields, or a 12 hour day in a factory.

Anecdotal, but my wife and I were more involved with our kids schooling than our parents were with ours. I just don't hold this presented trend to be 'self evident'. DW works at a school, they have all sorts of volunteer parents coming in for a variety of tasks, there are still boy scouts, girl scouts, etc - all volunteer parents. There are active PTOs, music club boosters, plus the usual athletic groups.

I just don't see what the writer is getting at - does he/she ever provide any actual evidence (edit - I see the word 'evidence' was used by the writer, I bolded it - but none was provided. I guess using the word tricks the reader into thinking they were just provided with evidence?)?

-ERD50

 

[Keim]

What does that mean?

Was the one room school house really more open to outsiders? I imagine those parents were off working the fields, or a 12 hour day in a factory.

Anecdotal, but my wife and I were more involved with our kids schooling than our parents were with ours. I just don't hold this presented trend to be 'self evident'. DW works at a school, they have all sorts of volunteer parents coming in for a variety of tasks, there are still boy scouts, girl scouts, etc - all volunteer parents. There are active PTOs, music club boosters, plus the usual athletic groups.

I just don't see what the writer is getting at - does he/she ever provide any actual evidence (edit - I see the word 'evidence' was used by the writer, I bolded it - but none was provided. I guess using the word tricks the reader into thinking they were just provided with evidence?)?

-ERD50

My local schools do backflips of joy when a parent wants to help out in the classroom or at events.

However, it is harder for local groups with an agenda to get in to speak with the kids. For instance, the Boy Scouts generally aren't allowed into the classroom to recruit kids (locally they usually are allowed to speak in the lunch room.)

 

[Keim]

I don't think the "not my problem" mindset is any worse than it has ever been as regards people helping out in community organizations. Growing up I was taught the 90/10 rule. 10% of the people do 90% of the work. Seems like it is still that way. No better or worse.

The above speaks to my opinions on people volunteering, and doing such things as attempting to make their community a better place.

I do think people have gotten much more rude. Poorer manners, less considerate of others in their dealings with them.

 

[BigNick]

These same people would have been waxing poetic about the buggy whip shop closing a hundred years ago. I recall some famous news story from the 60s (50's?) of people in NY passing by someone who was being beaten in public, and no one even tried to find a cop.

That would be the Kitty Genovese case, which seems to have been thoroughly debunked (basically: lots of people called the cops, who didn't show up; but when the victim later died, the cover-up machine got a friendly journalist to write up how awful the witnesses had been).

 

[Bestwifeever]

Never mind...everything is wonderful and getting better every day.

I'm sorry you deleted your OP, Midpack. It was thoughtprovoking for me (not that I would promise to stay on topic, of course ).

 

[ERD50]

Never mind...everything is wonderful and getting better every day.

I'm sorry you deleted your OP, Midpack. It was thoughtprovoking for me (not that I would promise to stay on topic, of course ).

Well, I sure don't think 'everything is wonderful and getting better every day', but I also don't think everything (or even the things he/she references in your excerpt) is as bad as your writer paints it. But I was afraid that going into the things that are worse, and the reasons why might be too far OT for now (and probably venture too far into politics, risking thread closure).

People can view these things differently - what's the point of posting if all it seems you want is agreement? And I take special exception to someone claiming 'For direct evidence', and then just giving their personal viewpoint with no evidence whatsoever presented. Anyone who wants to preach to the choir just has to find the right choir (audience), it isn't too tough to find, and they won't demand evidence. To paraphrase Talking Barbie 'Evidence is hard' (1).

from wikipedia:

(1) One of these 270 phrases was "Math class is tough!" (often misquoted as "Math is hard"). Although only about 1.5% of all the dolls sold said the phrase, it led to criticism from the American Association of University Women. In October 1992 Mattel announced that Teen Talk Barbie would no longer say the phrase, and offered a swap to anyone who owned a doll that did.[23]

-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

Well, I sure don't think 'everything is wonderful and getting better every day', but I also don't think everything (or even the things he/she references in your excerpt) is as bad as your writer paints it. But I was afraid that going into the things that are worse, and the reasons why might be too far OT for now (and probably venture too far into politics, risking thread closure).

People can view these things differently - what's the point of posting if all it seems you want is agreement? And I take special exception to someone claiming 'For direct evidence', and then just giving their personal viewpoint with no evidence whatsoever presented. Anyone who wants to preach to the choir just has to find the right choir (audience), it isn't too tough to find, and they won't demand evidence. To paraphrase Talking Barbie 'Evidence is hard' (1).

Seriously? I've watched you complain about evidence while providing little or none to support your POV, this thread for example. Your personal experience is not representative evidence. I've provided evidence in other threads and you come back with your 'rose colored glasses' and now quoting Barbie? I'm not going to provide evidence for you to ignore or dismiss once again.

You keep contending that things haven't gotten worse (on earlier threads) without anything to support it, I doubt most people would agree. We have more challenges than ever with unfavorable trends in income inequality, crony capitalism, campaign finance/lobbyists/special interests, infant mortality, lifespans, education performance, health care costs & uninsured, Soc Sec/Medicare solvency, political polarization, a gridlocked Congress, marriage/divorce, individual honesty, national debt/deficits, a disappearing middle class, whole manufacturing industries lost, teenage pregnancies, the worst recession since the great depression and little if anything to prevent the next bubble - and that's off the top of my head.

I wasn't looking for agreement at all, but I was hoping for more than I got. My point is not what's wrong with America, anyone can cast stones. My point was to understand what we can do to make things better. After the last thread attempt and the start of this one, I thought why bother. If you want to explore your POV, start a thread.

There are some 'brilliant people here, and some doofi.' While many threads are just entertaining and that's most welcome, some are more serious and truly inspired. I was hoping this would be the latter, I learn from all POVs on those threads.

Flame away, I expect you'll pick one on my list to dispute and miss the broader point and/or ask what this has to do with the original post. Whooooosh...

[/rant]

 

[Amethyst]

I am minded of this book, published nearly 40 years ago (I don't own it, therefore can't summarize it, and believe the title is self-explanatory):

The good old days--they were terrible! - Otto Bettmann - Google Books

 

[Midpack]

I'm sorry you deleted your OP, Midpack. It was thoughtprovoking for me (not that I would promise to stay on topic, of course ).

I thought it was thought provoking too, I was hoping it would result in some thoughtful views of all kinds, and the usual humor as well...I promise to stay off that topic.

 

[ERD50]

Seriously? I've watched you complain about evidence while providing little or none to support your POV, this thread for example.

I think you misunderstood my 'evidence' comment. Though it's hard to explain with your original quote gone.

It appeared that the writer you were quoting was saying that their one-room schoolhouse example was direct evidence. It looked to me to just be the writers viewpoint, not evidence at all. So I wasn't calling you out for lack of evidence, I was calling out the writer for calling a viewpoint 'direct evidence'. I don't like to be BS'd.

Your personal experience is not representative evidence. I've provided evidence in other threads and you come back with your 'rose colored glasses' and now quoting Barbie? I'm not going to provide evidence for you to ignore or dismiss once again.

Of course it's not. I'm just showing how it is so easy to counter one view with another - and how does that lead to anything? The Talking Barbie thing was a play on "Math is Hard"/"Evidence is hard". Geez, a little sense of humor please?

You keep contending that things haven't gotten worse (on earlier threads) without anything to support it, I doubt most people would agree.

Actually, that is not what I contend. What I'm saying is that it isn't so obvious that things have unequivocally gotten worse. I'm saying it is debate-able, but you don't seem to really want to debate it, you seem to want it accepted as fact. At least that is how you come across to me (why I use 'seem to'). Would most people agree? I don't know, why not let them discuss it here instead of taking down the quote?

We have more challenges than ever with unfavorable trends in ...[big list] - and that's off the top of my head.

And it would be just as easy to come up with a list of things that are better in the world, off the top of my head.

I wasn't looking for agreement at all, but I was hoping for more than I got. My point is not what's wrong with America, anyone can cast stones. My point was to understand what we can do to make things better.

Since you didn't get what you are looking for, maybe you should consider if you were clear. Again, hard to comment now with the quote gone, but I saw a list of unfounded comments on perceived degradation of society.

So, what were you hoping for? It's hard for me to see that you were looking for anything other than people to agree with you, but maybe I got it wrong.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

That would be the Kitty Genovese case, which seems to have been thoroughly debunked (basically: lots of people called the cops, who didn't show up; but when the victim later died, the cover-up machine got a friendly journalist to write up how awful the witnesses had been).

Thanks for the reference. I googled it, and found that the true story (as well as it is known) is far different than what I had heard.

-ERD50