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Old 10-15-2019, 03:29 PM   #41
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If something "environmental" is causing some people to gain weight, even while eating the same amounts/types of food and exercising just as much, then it strikes me that the "something" is actually increasing our metabolic efficiency. That strikes me as a benign effect if there ever was one!

Why wouldn't that be something we'd want? To consume less, and get the same amount of energy out of it? Isn't that what we'd love for our vehicles, for example?
We're getting better MPG?[emoji23]
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Old 10-15-2019, 03:45 PM   #42
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I suspect that processed foods play a huge role in weight gain. Omni's map shows the US to be a leader in obesity. And I suspect that the US is a leader in amount of processed food consumed.

And the pct of obese in the US has increased over the past 50 years as I suspect the amount of processed food consumed has increased as well.

Although CICO is the simple explanation, it may be that calories might not burn off as easily for a person eating a lot of junk food.
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:09 PM   #43
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Well, basically, yeah...if the hypotheses about "environmental" (mysterious viruses, something in the water supply, plastic residues in the blood, changes in the gut biome etc.) reasons for weight gain have merit.

I mean...how would we like it, if "environmental" issues were making everyone lose weight while eating and exercising the same? Sure, people who need to lose weight would like it...for a while...until they got dangerously thin, and needed to eat 10,000 calories a day, while lying in bed, just to stay alive.


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We're getting better MPG?[emoji23]
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:14 PM   #44
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I dunno.

I suspect that the reason our "car" does not burn any fuel is not because it now gets better "mpg", but rather because it does not get driven, stays in the garage and gets tire dry rot.
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:21 PM   #45
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Yeah we played outside all the time as kids with a myriad number of versions of the game of baseball.
Didn't come home until dinnertime.
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:41 PM   #46
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While in Alaska this summer we went to a couple sled dog places. Now these are dogs in training for either the Iditarod race or to be used as sled dogs in the winter. Very fit and well cared for, ribs showing! It was funny to hear a number of comments by (I assume dog owners) at how skinny and malnourished they thought these dogs were!
These dogs are athletes comparable to professional marathoners and other athletes. Well fed, well taken care of, treated very humanely. And some people felt sorry for them?
BTW it was awesome to see how excited the dogs became when they knew they would be hooked up to a harness for training.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:38 PM   #47
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CICO is true for bomb calorimeters but not for living organisms.

Perhaps the easiest illustration of this is embodied in table sugar. A simple disaccharide of fructose and glucose - both C6H12O6 isomers, exactly the same calories. Handled totally differently by the body. Cause dramatically different hormonal responses, stored differently and in different places.

I don't know what the answer is but I do know that CICO is definitely not the entire answer and suspect that the idea has been part of the mindset that has landed us in the crisis we now find ourselves in.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:58 PM   #48
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On our recent 15 day cruise, the table next to us was a fellow who probably weighed 600 lbs. He ate appetizers and 3 main plates every night.

He always skipped desert, as he probably was watching his weight
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:25 AM   #49
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My sweet grandma had a horrible life. After her mom died she became a ward of the state because the dad abandoned the kids. She was 12 and put her in a orphanage that sent her to farms to work like a slave. Her younger sister had it worse. She was obese by 40 and I am sure it helped with her pain. People with serious weight problems maybe are overeating to mask pain.
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Old 10-16-2019, 03:45 AM   #50
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I suspect you are right.

The car probably sits at the computer all day and half the night, too.

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I dunno.

I suspect that the reason our "car" does not burn any fuel is not because it now gets better "mpg", but rather because it does not get driven, stays in the garage and gets tire dry rot.
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:22 AM   #51
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In high school, I was a skinny kid trying to gain weight. For 3 years, I routinely ate 9 glazed donuts daily, and drank a quart of half and half during the summers while w*rking at a hardware store. The manager and 2 cashiers ate the other 3, had the bakery next door was pleased. When I w*rking the evening shift, I stuck a deal with the Baskin Robbins owner to buy and eat a half gallon of French Vanilla ice cream very cheap..


I never gained a pound, at 6'5" and 185 lbs, but at 61, I'm 230 lbs.
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:24 AM   #52
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One thing I do know: advertisers are paying attention. Just brought in an armload of clothing catalogues. Every single one has overweight models on the cover. Including the underwear catalogues.
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:42 AM   #53
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Vanity sizing of clothing also doesn't help. A conversation about how brand A's size 6 was comparable to brand B's size 4 and how guys have it so good with absolute (eg, 32" waist pants) led to some research that surprised me. Women's sizes were originally absolute as well but that has diverged tremendously in the direction you'd expect. A size 10 was a 23" waist; now that can be a size 00, or even smaller. I've noticed this is creeping into men's supposedly-absolute sizing as well!
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:38 AM   #54
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Women's sizes were originally absolute as well but that has diverged tremendously in the direction you'd expect. A size 10 was a 23" waist; now that can be a size 00, or even smaller. I've noticed this is creeping into men's supposedly-absolute sizing as well!
Yup. We have the young man's cut, the regular cut, and the comfort cut.

The sad thing is I see a lot of young men in their 30's who already need the comfort cut.
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Old 10-16-2019, 09:14 AM   #55
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I've always believed in the CICO until last few years. Couple of times I went for 6-8 weeks RIGOROUSLY using the fitness site by UnderArmour, to the point of weighing portions. I exercise a lot (~1-1/2 hours 3-5 times a week) and when you plugged all that in the calcs predicted I'd lose 2 lbs a week or more. Nothing even close. And, while we enjoy rice, potatoes, and pasta occasionally I wouldn't call us carb heavy. So while I believe CICO is a pretty good indicator it's not precise. FWIW we both stay well under BMI overweight. DW probably only 5# over high school weight, but she's at the gym 5 days a week. It's more of a battle for me, but one thing I stand by. I used to be able to manage weight by exercise alone; eat what I want and if add pounds just exercise more. Now, at 68 even burning 700-800 active calories according to my watch I can barely allow myself an occasional cookie or ice cream.

Oh, and as for the dogs, have always had Bassetts. Fairly laid back and tend towards inactivity so have to restrict food. All previous have loved a good walk but current one wants to turn around after two houses unless I take her to the woods! I try but she's just a true couch potato. I'm old enough to remember as a kid the first hound dog we had (who'd be allowed to run off in the woods for days at a time) ate nothing but Hill's frozen horsemen! Kibble? What was THAT?
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Old 10-16-2019, 09:58 AM   #56
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CICO: you can measure ingredients or packaged food with precision. Remember that guy who ate nothing but twinkies to prove it?

So what assumptions did you make on your calories burned by exercise and your resting metabolic rate?

It doesn’t make much error to be plus or minus a few pounds.

As I said earlier, same activity level and I eat half as much food to maintain the same weight. My physicals showed fat % was going up so I made a change. My base metabolic rate was going down with age, more drastically than any index table on the Internet would suggest.

CICO absolutely works if you know all the details. You may store and process sugar and fructose differently but if you burn the same calories you will end up in the same place. The difference would be how full/hungry did you feel during the process and did you cave in and have a snack? If you eat quality foods high in natural fiber you are less likely to have this issue.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:55 AM   #57
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CICO absolutely works if you know all the details.
ALL the details. There is much most people don't even consider.

Recall that in certain parts of the world, people burn dung for it's energy content...

Just one example.
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:57 PM   #58
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I knew hunting dogs had no mercy, but gee! (How did you get them to ride into the freezer?)

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I'm old enough to remember as a kid the first hound dog we had (who'd be allowed to run off in the woods for days at a time) ate nothing but Hill's frozen horsemen!
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Old 10-16-2019, 01:35 PM   #59
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I have been blaming the high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) used in commercially prepared food for people's obesity.

But I just searched on the Web, and there are scientific studies showing that it may not be the case. It is not that replacing sucrose with fructose causes the problem, but the fact that more sweet is consumed now compared to the old days.


Quote:
Cane and beet sugars have been used as the major sweetener in food manufacturing for centuries. However, with the development of HFCS, a significant shift occurred in the type of sweetener consumption in certain countries, particularly the United States. Contrary to the popular belief, however, with the increase of HFCS consumption, the total fructose intake relative to the total glucose intake has not dramatically changed. Granulated sugar is 99.9%-pure sucrose, which means that it has equal ratio of fructose to glucose. The most commonly used forms of HFCS, HFCS-42, and HFCS-55, have a roughly equal ratio of fructose to glucose, with minor differences. HFCS has simply replaced sucrose as a sweetener. Therefore, despite the changes in the sweetener consumption, the ratio of glucose to fructose intake has remained relatively constant.


Another study reaffirms CICO.

Quote:
In a meta-analysis of clinical trials with controlled feeding — where test subjects were fed a fixed amount of energy rather than being allowed to choose the amount they ate — fructose was not an independent factor for weight gain; however, fructose consumption was associated with weight gain when the fructose provided excess calories.

And surprisingly, fructose has a lower glycemic index than glucose and sucrose.

Quote:
An expert panel of the European Food Safety Authority concluded that fructose is preferred in food and beverage manufacturing to replace sucrose and glucose due to the lower effect of fructose on blood glucose levels following a meal. However, as a common sweetening agent for foods and beverages, fructose has been associated with increased risk of obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disorders that are part of metabolic syndrome. Clinical research has provided no or only limited direct evidence that fructose itself is associated with elevated LDL cholesterol and triglycerides leading to metabolic syndrome, but rather indicates that excessive consumption of sugar-sweetened foods and beverages, and the concurrent increase in calorie intake, underlies metabolic syndrome. Similarly, increased consumption of sweetened foods and beverages raises risk of cardiovascular disease, including hypertension, but there is no direct cause and effect relationship in humans showing that fructose is the causative factor.
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Old 10-16-2019, 01:40 PM   #60
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Unless the laws of physics have been suspended, CICO has to work if you are getting the inputs right. Two things I've found that are significant (and fixable) in that regard and a half thing that isn't easily fixable:

1) Many packaged foods' weight and therefore calorie count are higher than listed on the package. For example, a bar I eat regularly has a listed serving size of 35g and one serving per package. I weighed them for a couple weeks (15+ samples) and every single one was over 35g. I believe the average was 41g or 17% more.

1b) The same general issue applies to made-on-the-fly foods for places that publish nutrition info. A Blaze pizza might show 750 calories online, but if the guy making it puts on a bunch of extra cheese that could easily go up by 100 calories. Most places want to show the lowest calories possible and want to minimize ingredients used, so any variance is likely to be up.

2) At least some of the calorie tracking apps set your baseline too high. For example, for my age, sex, height and weight, LoseIt sets my baseline 200-250 cal/day too high. This is based on both more detailed formulas and tables and on my long-standing experience. I have body fat in the 6-8% range and am very active -- both factors which would tend to push up my actual baseline. If I were more average in BF and activity, I imagine it would be 300+ cal/day too high.

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I've always believed in the CICO until last few years. Couple of times I went for 6-8 weeks RIGOROUSLY using the fitness site by UnderArmour, to the point of weighing portions. I exercise a lot (~1-1/2 hours 3-5 times a week) and when you plugged all that in the calcs predicted I'd lose 2 lbs a week or more. Nothing even close. And, while we enjoy rice, potatoes, and pasta occasionally I wouldn't call us carb heavy. So while I believe CICO is a pretty good indicator it's not precise. FWIW we both stay well under BMI overweight. DW probably only 5# over high school weight, but she's at the gym 5 days a week. It's more of a battle for me, but one thing I stand by. I used to be able to manage weight by exercise alone; eat what I want and if add pounds just exercise more. Now, at 68 even burning 700-800 active calories according to my watch I can barely allow myself an occasional cookie or ice cream.
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