The Saudis oil and the Bushes

[dumpster56]

Interesting goings on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/washington/29saudi.html?hp

 

[bssc]

I liked the comment that King Abdullah didn't want to be see as being like Tony Blair. It is a sign of how the Bush administration has lost so much good will the United States had because of his father's actions and because of the initial sympathy the US had after 9/11. Of course, there is the same reaction at home where Bush's poll numbers are abysmal.

 

[dumpster56]

I liked the comment that King Abdullah didn't want to be see as being like Tony Blair. It is a sign of how the Bush administration has lost so much good will the United States had because of his father's actions and because of the initial sympathy the US had after 9/11. Of course, there is the same reaction at home where Bush's poll numbers are abysmal.

I believe it is time to start impeachment hearings here in the states against both the president and the Vice president.

 

[2B]

I believe it is time to start impeachment hearings here in the states against both the president and the Vice president.

There seems to be some confusion about "impeachment." Widespread hatred of the president and/or vice president is not an impeachable offense.

Since Bill Clinton was actually guilty of a felony (he later confessed pleaded no contest and lost his law license) and wasn't removed from office, I must assume the actual level of "crime" is pretty high to be removed. BC was impeached but the Senate decided they didn't want to really examine it.

I really wish the dem presidential hopefuls would stop running on which one hates GW the most and would start actually talking about what they want to do. I think the dems have to work hard to not win in 2008 and I'd like to see if anyone of them has a clue about what they would like to see done.

 

[chinaco]

I really wish the dem presidential hopefuls would stop running on which one hates GW the most ...

I am not sure anyone hates GW. There are quite a few that are disgusted with being decieved about the WMD issues in Iraq.

By the way... there are quite a few Republicans and Independents that are disgusted also. You can count me in that group!

A president has to be a diplomat. GW does not have that quality. He is a cowboy... although all hat... no cattle! He wants to run in guns a blazin'... ahem.. I mean send our young people in guns a blazin'!

Plus... we will windup with another dictator in Iraq that is semi-friendly to the US (probably for a short period). If memory serves me... Ronald Reagan outfitted Saddam with weapons to fight Iran.

We need an energy policy and direction in this country.

After the fuel crisis in the late 70's... the much derided James Carter created an energy program that was intended to move us towards energy independence. Ronald Reagan dismantled all of it! This is a fact.

Reagan is often cited as the person that ended th cold war. The fact is he was the last in a long line of presidential administrations that held the line... The USSR finally crumbled economically. It had little to do with RR.

Matter of fact... Many of RR's policies are coming back to bite us right now!

Unfortunately, politics often enters the discussion when Republicans or Democrats discuss our country's direction. Fact is that we have had very few great presidents in the last 100 years. Perhaps only 3.

1) Teddy Roosevelt - The Trust Buster
2) FDR - lead us after the Great Depression and mostly through WWII (he didn't get re-elected that many times for nothing)
3) Ike - Before being elected (architect of allied forces). As president the reconstruction of Europe, Japan/Asia, Interstae highway system, etc...


The rest of them have been marginal at best. The most they had going for them is perhaps popularity within their own party.

Back on subject:

gw happened to be at a historic place in time with 911. He went into Afghanistan... correct reponse. Covert/Overt war on terror... correct response. The war in Iraq... a foolish move that will honor him with the title of the worst president of the 21st century. If he is not rated that way in 94 years... It will be because no one is around to remember the monumental deception and blunder!

In short: gw scr3wed himself and the rest of us!

 

[dex]

I believe it is time to start impeachment hearings here in the states against both the president and the Vice president.

By the time the hearings ended it they would be out of office.
But let's assume they were impeached. Here is the question:

What would the legal charges be?

 

[2B]

What would the legal charges be?

Not showing up for his dental appointment when he was in the Air National Guard. Dan Rather has all of the documents to prove it.

 

[dex]

1) Teddy Roosevelt - The Trust Buster
2) FDR - lead us after the Great Depression and mostly through WWII (he didn't get re-elected that many times for nothing)
3) Ike - Before being elected (architect of allied forces). As president the reconstruction of Europe, Japan/Asia, Interstae highway system, etc...
The rest of them have been marginal at best. The most they had going for them is perhaps popularity within their own party.
In short: gw scr3wed himself and the rest of us!

Chinaco,
Some good points here.
My vote for worst president is W. Wilson. He ran for his second term with the slogan "He kept us out of war" and then he enters it. If he didn't allow the selling of munitions to the British and didn't enter the war -.the world would have been a better place (probably no WWII). Many of today's problems can be traced to the decisions make at the peace plan devised at the end of the war. But we don't discuss that because time changes perspective. So it will be with GW II. In a few years there will be another "worst" president.

If there was one thing I could change a US president doing in the last century it would be the US getting into "The
Great War". It sound quaint to say that now.

 

[bssc]

By the time the hearings ended it they would be out of office.
But let's assume they were impeached. Here is the question:

What would the legal charges be?

Here is a whole list, in one convenient place, of different charges that different people think that Bush can be impeached for, starting with lying about WMD, illegal wiretapping and so on.

Even Pat Buchanan wants to impeach him, that pinko liberal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_to_impeach_George_W._Bush

 

[Mwsinron]

Not showing up for his dental appointment when he was in the Air National Guard. Dan Rather has all of the documents to prove it.

Wait doesn't the New York Times have all that quality information

 

[2B]

I would think that the past actual and near impeachments (A. Johnson, R. Nixon and B. Clinton) show that the country becomes paralyzed during and after the circus. It is certainly not something to be taken lightly or as the weekly rant of those not happy with what is happening. In the ones we've had I think we would have been better off just letting the president serve out his term. Yes, that includes Nixon who was actually a pretty decent president other than all that obstruction of justice stuff. It would have been so much better for the country if some sort of sanction could have been applied. I also doubt he was the first or last president to use the power of the presidency to adjust the flow of "justice."

It's not a new topic unfortunately. It seemed to be a common form of attack by political opponents. Generally, the attacks would be from the more rabid types not associated with the actual government. Probably the worst attacks were leveled against Lincoln for just about everything. He really grew the power of a wartime president. The New York Times ran repeated editorials calling for his impeachment and stated in some that anyone who killed Lincoln would go down in history as a great patriot. Bush II hasn't reached that level of hatred but maybe only because of recent laws making such statements criminal.

 

[haha]

Probably the worst attacks were leveled against Lincoln for just about everything. He really grew the power of a wartime president. The New York Times ran repeated editorials calling for his impeachment and stated in some that anyone who killed Lincoln would go down in history as a great patriot.

Wow, I had never heard about this. And now Lincoln is our most revered president, at least north of the M.D Line.

If we tried to pull 1/10 of the crap in Iraq that Mr. Lincoln, Sherman, Grant. et. al. inflicted on our Confederacy the administration would fall.

Ha

 

[dex]

Wow, I had never heard about this. And now Lincoln is our most revered president, at least north of the M.D Line.

If we tried to pull 1/10 of the crap in Iraq that Mr. Lincoln, Sherman, Grant. et. al. inflicted on our Confederacy the administration would fall.

Ha

A very good point. At the beginning of The War of Northern Agression; the South as kicking the North's butt.

 

[bssc]

A very good point. At the beginning of The War of Northern Agression; the South as kicking the North's butt.

I think that you misspelled the War of Southern Rebellion. Of course, all the Senators who would have voted to impeach Lincoln left Congress so Abe was pretty safe. Ask the Maryland legislators that he locked up. Ask Clement Vallandigham how he was treated.

 

[2B]

I think that you misspelled the War of Southern Rebellion. Of course, all the Senators who would have voted to impeach Lincoln left Congress so Abe was pretty safe. Ask the Maryland legislators that he locked up. Ask Clement Vallandigham how he was treated.

Heck, he jailed people in Ohio. Don't forget suspending habeous corpus, the first draft, the first income tax, seizure of private property, approved terrorist war tactics (think Sherman)... The list goes on and on. He personally directed contracts to go to specific individuals but I don't think Halliburton was involved.

The big question is whether he lied about the South having WMDs.

 

[chinaco]

After seeing the 60 minutes interview with George Tenet (Prior CIA Director)... Condy Rice should be fired! Tenet briefed her about pending al qaeda attack in July and that we whould take it to them in Afghanistan . She did not bubble it up to the president.

Instead, Bush promoted her to Secretary of State.

Oh and Tenet admits that the CIA got intel on WMD in Iraq wrong. He also said that Iraq had no involvement in 911. That going into Iraq did not make sense.

 

[dumpster56]

After seeing the 60 minutes interview with George Tenet (Prior CIA Director)... Condy Rice should be fired! Tenet briefed her about pending al qaeda attack in July and that we whould take it to them in Afghanistan . She did not bubble it up to the president.

Instead, Bush promoted her to Secretary of State.

Oh and Tenet admits that the CIA got intel on WMD in Iraq wrong. He also said that Iraq had no involvement in 911. That going into Iraq did not make sense.

Oh NO Sean hannity will have a cow!

Condi for president! Yea right!

Heck I must be a genius, I told all the people I knew that we should not bother with saddam back before the war and heck I am just an erd Phys ed teacher what do I know!

 

[chinaco]

Heck I must be a genius, I told all the people I knew that we should not bother with saddam back before the war and heck I am just an erd Phys ed teacher what do I know!

newguy888 for president 2008!

 

[samclem]

After seeing the 60 minutes interview with George Tenet (Prior CIA Director)... Condy Rice should be fired! Tenet briefed her about pending al qaeda attack in July and that we whould take it to them in Afghanistan . She did not bubble it up to the president.

Instead, Bush promoted her to Secretary of State.

Oh and Tenet admits that the CIA got intel on WMD in Iraq wrong. He also said that Iraq had no involvement in 911. That going into Iraq did not make sense.

Would this be the same George Tenet who wrote a book that went on sale last week? Imagine that--what a coincidence.

He should be deeply ashamed of himself. During his tenure at CIA he failed to support the good work of analysts and allowed the end producty of the best intelligence system in the world to be bent to serve political purposes. There's plenty of published material from unbiased sources on what the intel community got right and what they got wrong, so there's no need to believe Tenet (again). His Presidential Medal of Freedom should be rescinded.

 

[samclem]

I am not sure anyone hates GW.

You're joking, right?

By the way... there are quite a few Republicans and Independents that are disgusted also. You can count me in that group!

Me, too.

Plus... we will windup with another dictator in Iraq that is semi-friendly to the US (probably for a short period). If memory serves me... Ronald Reagan outfitted Saddam with weapons to fight Iran.

I don't think we sold or gave any significant amount of weapons to Iraq. There are press reports that we provided Saddam with intelligence on Iran.

After the fuel crisis in the late 70's... the much derided James Carter created an energy program that was intended to move us towards energy independence. Ronald Reagan dismantled all of it! This is a fact.

The energy programs put in place under Carter were incredible wastes of taxpayer money. Ther Synfuel program is a poster child for government waste. Most governments are just not good at picking winners and losers, whereas the marketplace does a very good job of allocating resources to the place that will give hihest payout. Government research does have a place, but when that research moves to production of goods and services--watch out. Reagan's killing of these programs was a blessing.

Energy Independence--it's not a meaningful goal (unless you are trying to get elected). Even if US energy production matched our energy use, we'd still sell energy to those willing to pay the highest price for it, leaving us short. What we need is energy security, and that will come from increasing the variety of energy sources we can use.

 

[dex]

Heck I must be a genius, I told all the people I knew that we should not bother with saddam back before the war and heck I am just an erd Phys ed teacher what do I know!

Wait a second - I said that "New Coke" would bomb and smokeless cigaretts wouldn't work.
I also said that the stock market bubble would burst.

 

[chinaco]

Would this be the same George Tenet who wrote a book that went on sale last week? Imagine that--what a coincidence.

He should be deeply ashamed of himself. During his tenure at CIA he failed to support the good work of analysts and allowed the end producty of the best intelligence system in the world to be bent to serve political purposes. There's plenty of published material from unbiased sources on what the intel community got right and what they got wrong, so there's no need to believe Tenet (again). His Presidential Medal of Freedom should be rescinded.

Yup... the same person (obviously). I am not sure that intel gathering is flawless or a perfect science. He admitted the they had some bad intel... But we must remember, he does not control funding, and he does not make the ultimate decisions. Condy was the filter to GW. Garbage in Garbage out. Plus, the president has to deal with uncertainty and ambiguity.

I cannot vouch for his character... but one thing is fairly evident, GW, Cheney, an Rummy all wanted to take down Saddam. At any cost. Cheney and Rummy have been around... they knew that the intel could be flawed. It is ambiguous. THey threw down an ultimatum publicly to Saddam and cornered him. The WMD search could have happened without a war if they had continued to apply more pressure. They used it as an excuse.

Saddam with intelligence on Iran.The energy programs put in place under Carter were incredible wastes of taxpayer money. Ther Synfuel program is a poster child for government waste. Most governments are just not good at picking winners and losers, whereas the marketplace does a very good job of allocating resources to the place that will give hihest payout. Government research does have a place, but when that research moves to production of goods and services--watch out. Reagan's killing of these programs was a blessing.

I hate to break the news to you... but Carter had it right (when it comes to actively supporting an energy program)!

Ever look at the cost of the war in Iraq! The cost of the Middle east turmoil and disruption to our economy. Energy has turned into an economic weapon and tool to get at us.

Synfuel was a step in the right direction that made sense at the time... That was a logical target because of our abundance of coal. It is a viable technology... depending on oil prices, the economics work out. But that is a little beside the general point. What could/should have happened... if Reagan was forward thinking... would have been to replace that program with another instead of just cutting the initiative!

The Carter move was intended (at the time) to beging an initiative to help break us free of the middle east. If all of the middle east costs were accounted for... I suspect that any energy initiative will look cheap!

Economics is the cold (yet overt) war of the 21st century and energy is one of the weapons.

Saint Reagan had his moments... but he did not always get it right!

 

[LKH]

If I remember Carter correctly, he believed that we should be looking at alternative and domestic energy sources, to get away from foreign oil. The man made a lot of mistakes, but if we'd have stayed the course on that point, we would probably not be in the morass we're in today. I disagree with him profoundly on his views on Israel, which I think border on anti-Semitic, but on the oil issue, I think he had it right.

What a lot of people don't get is that the culture in the Middle East is so intrinsically different from the west, on so many critical points, that so long as we feel it's necessary to be engaged to any serious degree, we are bound to have these conflicts with groups like Al Qaeda.

One of Carter's mistakes was supporting the despotic Shah of Iran because he was culturally friendly to the west. We're making the same huge mistake supporting the al Saud's - there will be an overthrow, probably soon, and we're going to be up to our belt loops in the conflict.

 

[FinanceDude]

Not showing up for his dental appointment when he was in the Air National Guard. Dan Rather has all of the documents to prove it.

 

[USK Coastie]

I noticed last night they did not ask why when the CIA had a shot a Bin Laden in 98/99 they didnt take it. Didn't want to embarass the Dems no doubt

One of the reasions Regan killed the syn fuels project was the cost to produce the fuel from coal was above $3.00 per gallon at the commercial scale. Real hard to sell syn fuel to Joe customer at $3.00 / per gallon when gas was $1.50/ per gallon.

We need to develop our known reserves, ( ANWAR off shore CA, FL, and deep water deposits in the Gulf) and and increase productioin capacity in order to get out of this Middle East mess. Also construct wind farms where they are most effective instead if the NIMBY attitude. The Dems are still too busy hating Bush to do anything constructive. Fer crying out loud he'll be gone 20 months. GET OVER IT and do something productive about the problem.

We could easily be energy independant but both political parties are too busy hustling their supporters to come to grips with this as well as other issues.