The Stoicism Thread

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewskers So it is in one's best interest to accept the situation, and proceed calmly and rationally.

Or...as a previous poster said, using an economy of words, "Suck it up".

[audreyh1]

More like, let it go.

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 More like, let it go.

You say tom-ah-toe, I say tom-eh-toe.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-mean-to-suck-it-up

Quote:

“Suck it up” is an admonition to stop moping, whimpering or fretting over a scrape or a sad or stressful situation. It is telling someone that the time is not right for the unhelpful focus on one's personal problems, pains, worries or embarrassment. Reset yourself and focus on what needs to be done.

[audreyh1]

Breathe in versus breathe out?

[martyp]

Personally I consider myself an Existentialist.

Regarding the "handling of emotions". When younger and early in my career I was prone to blurt out the first thing in my head. I began to recognize that that wasn't the best thing to do in order to get your ideas across. What I learned was that emotional outbursts are accompanied by physical symptoms. Call it energy or blood boiling or whatever. You can feel it. If you can recognize the symptoms you can train yourself to hesitate before action. In my case, just keep my mouth shut, take a breath, think about what I just heard and then respond (or not). It has been enormously helpful throughout my life.

Right now I am living in Bangkok, Thailand. The culture here is famous for being non-confrontational. In reality, they let it out in other ways at other times but it makes for a much more pleasant public sphere.

[ER Eddie]

"Suck it up, buttercup."

Izzy Mandelbaum, a modern stoic.




It's go time.

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 Breathe in versus breathe out?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hea...ng-11590098696

Quote:

But breathing is not that simple and binary. How we breathe matters, too.

[Rianne]

I felt empowered and confident when I stood up to my oldest DB. Family tends to listen to him as though he's a guru. When I exploded (not in anger, but an emotional burst) I was able to articulate my thoughts rationally. Everything bubbled up and came out great. He was more respectful of my opinion for awhile.
I happen to appreciate a good emotional outburst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKl41s51JvE

[ER Eddie]

Yeah, passion helps convince people and drive the point home. Dry rationality often doesn't cut it, especially when you're dealing with thorny interpersonal issues -- although there are times when draining the emotion out can be the right choice, too.

[sengsational]

I never knew if it was "the right way" or not, but occasionally, when my kids were little, I'd act like I was emotional, even though I wasn't. As you say, a way to convey the gravity of the situation when dry rationality wouldn't have the same effect (especially with little kids, who don't have the attention span to "get" the rationality).

[slingshot]

Interesting thread! I recently subscribed to Ryan Holiday's blog/newsletter and he has an excellent (IMO) reading list

[ER Eddie]

Started into Epictetus. Good stuff. Here's one that I had to apply just yesterday:

"Circumstances do not rise to meet our expectations. Events happen as they do. People behave as they are."

How true.

--

Also, I've noticed that you have to be very careful about which edition you choose, in this area. I got an edition that has been "freshened up" into modern English, and it loses some of its power.

For example, I read stuff like, 'No shame. No blame," which I'm certain is something Epictetus would not say. It sounds like something you'd read in a pop psych book. Maybe it's the same idea, but I want to hear it in HIS words, not in the form of casual modern speech.

Part of the magic of reading these Stoic philosophers is the feeling of stepping back in time. The words have a gravity and nobility that modern, casual English lacks. To put things in modern idiom is to strip the language of its power. At least that's my reaction.

So now I'm hunting for another edition. I'm seeing comments about other editions such as, "This is not the actual book, it's just the author's interpretation."

So, the moral of the story is, be careful what editions you choose.

[Elbata]

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyp Regarding the "handling of emotions". When younger and early in my career I was prone to blurt out the first thing in my head. I began to recognize that that wasn't the best thing to do in order to get your ideas across. What I learned was that emotional outbursts are accompanied by physical symptoms. Call it energy or blood boiling or whatever. You can feel it. If you can recognize the symptoms you can train yourself to hesitate before action. In my case, just keep my mouth shut, take a breath, think about what I just heard and then respond (or not). It has been enormously helpful throughout my life..

I'm now pretty good at hesitating and keeping my mouth shut. What happens to me though is that so much goes through my mind and I don't think clearly or can come back quickly enough with a good argument.

[ER Eddie]

Epictetus is really good. The Enchiridion (The Manual) is excellent. It's a collection of short pieces -- the "best of," culled from his larger works. It's brief -- less than 50 pages -- and so you can read it in a day or two. The Roman army used to take it into battle with them. This is no high-level philosophical abstraction, like you get in Seneca sometimes -- this is down-to-earth, practical life philosophy.

It's packed with wisdom. Page for page, I'd say it has some of the most practical, applicable wisdom of just about any book I've ever read, and I've read thousands. To use the modern phrase, Epictetus "drops truth bombs" on every page. I often finish a passage and say to myself, "Damn. That was good." Like Nietzsche, he uses an economy of language; he says a lot in very few words.

I continue to be impressed at how "stoicism" is not merely about controlling your emotions or "sucking it up." It's so much deeper and more interesting than that. It is about wisdom, spiritual progress, virtue, and living a good, tranquil life.

Of course, there are different versions of stoicism, depending on the writer. Epictetus himself has an almost therapeutic effect on me. I feel calmer and wiser after reading him. He has a cool backstory as well. He was a slave who distinguished himself, and eventually he earned his way out of slavery. He became a teacher of many, including Marcus Aurelius. When you read the Marcus' Meditations, you're hearing the influence of Epictetus.

Highly recommended for anyone into stoicism.

[deserat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewskers If I may add yet another dimension of the Stoic attitude towards misfortune. It's that maintaining a sustained negative emotional reaction to a situation (e.g. worrying, panicking, catastrophizing) only makes the situation more difficult, and will cloud one's judgment and ability to respond effectively. So it is in one's best interest to accept the situation, and proceed calmly and rationally. Donald Robertson covers this notion in detail in his book How to Think Like a Roman Emperor. He's the same gentleman conducting the Stoic class previously mentioned in this thread.

I'm just finishing up Donald Robertson's class - a four week class on how to apply Stoicism principles to everyday life. Very interesting and useful. The website is called Modern Stoicism.

Eddie ER - Epictetus and his Enchiridion is quoted quite a lot in the class. The Serenity Prayer is referenced as possible derivative of the Stoic principles; Mr Robertson emphasizes that it's not what happens to us, but how we respond. Also, that our response is based on the judgment or value we give to what happens. If we pause or remove that judgment, it allows us to pause the emotional and/or physical response. The Stoics also believed that we only control our actions; I would modify that we control our actions but that over time those actions change us internally; additionally, our actions influence our environment as well, which can then also influence our actions.

[bmcgonig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER Eddie Epictetus is really good. The Enchiridion (The Manual) is excellent. It's a collection of short pieces -- the "best of," culled from his larger works. It's brief -- less than 50 pages -- and so you can read it in a day or two. The Roman army used to take it into battle with them. This is no high-level philosophical abstraction, like you get in Seneca sometimes -- this is down-to-earth, practical life philosophy. It's packed with wisdom. Page for page, I'd say it has some of the most practical, applicable wisdom of just about any book I've ever read, and I've read thousands. To use the modern phrase, Epictetus "drops truth bombs" on every page. I often finish a passage and say to myself, "Damn. That was good." Like Nietzsche, he uses an economy of language; he says a lot in very few words. I continue to be impressed at how "stoicism" is not merely about controlling your emotions or "sucking it up." It's so much deeper and more interesting than that. It is about wisdom, spiritual progress, virtue, and living a good, tranquil life. Of course, there are different versions of stoicism, depending on the writer. Epictetus himself has an almost therapeutic effect on me. I feel calmer and wiser after reading him. He has a cool backstory as well. He was a slave who distinguished himself, and eventually he earned his way out of slavery. He became a teacher of many, including Marcus Aurelius. When you read the Marcus' Meditations, you're hearing the influence of Epictetus. Highly recommended for anyone into stoicism.

The part about hugging your kids like they're just a human so that you won't miss them when they die is pretty weird and ambitious. I get the reasoning of course. Don't get attached to anyone so much that you will miss them when they die? But wouldn't that be a strange life?

[donheff]

All right, you peaked my interest enough. I was able to download the Duke Classic of The Enchiridion from the library. Once I finish with Say Nothing (the troubles in N Ireland) I will turn to stoicism.

[sengsational]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmcgonig The part about hugging your kids like they're just a human so that you won't miss them when they die is pretty weird and ambitious. I get the reasoning of course. Don't get attached to anyone so much that you will miss them when they die? But wouldn't that be a strange life?

I think that one's life relationships with people are enhanced by living by Stoic principles. One common technique is to imagine the world without that person. Not dwell on it, but imagine a world without that person. Now return to reality and really appreciate the person. I bet the next encounter you have with them will be richer. I'm not sure that the Stoics would agree that a distancing approach to relationships is really central to the philosophy.

[Rianne]

Just started reading "The Teaching of Epictetus." I especially connect to chapter 5, so far anyway. It brings me back to the long discussions into the wee hours of the morning during college and with my older DB who is a professor. And coincides with Bible studies when I dabbled in Evangelical Christianity. That didn't last very long as I didn't appreciate anyone telling me my interpretations and beliefs were wrong. That I must think and behave a certain way to thread that needle into heaven.

Epictetus stretches my comfort zone of judgement of others and circumstances out of my control and what is and is not in my power. If I can harness this wisdom and refer to it as I encounter circumstances and behavior out of my control, maybe I'll be a better person.

I'll try to put on my deep thinking hat and try not to think of Saturday Night Lives version of Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy and Stuart Smiley. Sorry had to post this one since "Last Dance" is so popular these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNx_gU57gQ4

[ER Eddie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmcgonig The part about hugging your kids like they're just a human so that you won't miss them when they die is pretty weird and ambitious. I get the reasoning of course. Don't get attached to anyone so much that you will miss them when they die? But wouldn't that be a strange life?

I don't remember that bit, but there certainly are parts I disagree with. I will have the reaction, "Yeah but..." or "Hold on, Epictetus, it's more complicated than that." With almost any book I read, I find things I disagree with or want to add nuance to. That's fine.

Overall, though, I find it helpful. It's good nutrition for the mind, without a lot of junk added. It stimulates my thinking and reminds me of fundamentals that I tend to forget. It's a course corrector. Seneca would talk about the philosopher as being like a doctor to a sick person, and Epictetus seems like an exemplar of that, very practical and therapeutic.