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Old 11-29-2018, 06:42 AM   #41
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There's nothing wrong with studying Freud, or reading different authors, or do some painting, etc..., after you are done with tending to the farm animals, or after the harvest season and you are waiting for winter to arrive. People did that for centuries. They did not expect to be paid just to read and study.
They also lived in caves and died at 30-35 for many centuries. So what?

Hopefully "what we did for centuries" isn't the bar against which we measure ourselves these days.
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Old 11-29-2018, 08:45 AM   #42
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I recall a teacher from my junior high days many many years ago saying "the world does owe you a living BUT you have to work for it".

Comments?
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:20 AM   #43
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Agreed, but some people (myself included) are fortunate to have a natural aptitude for skills that are highly valued. In my case, it led to a successful career as a software engineer. If, on the other hand, I had been born into a different world where (for example) art and musical ability were the most-valued skills, and STEM-related fields were not valued, I would have been screwed.
Not necessarily...you may have ended up as a roadie or sound technician.
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:36 AM   #44
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why blame just the kids?

a kid can't accumulate much debt for undergrad w/o an adult (usually parent) co-signer.
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Old 11-29-2018, 01:26 PM   #45
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A story:

He's a poor boy and whether by luck or ability, won a full scholarship to the nations best liberal arts college.
Also, in love. After graduation married and in a year, the first child. Though advanced scholarships were offered, they did not pay bills, so the one-time dream of becoming a psychiatrist had to wait.

Businesses with good paying jobs don't often target liberal arts graduates, so he had to struggle to find a way to pay the bills. A moderately good job and two more children in short order, pretty well settled the path to the future.

One of the things about good liberal arts colleges, is that a large number of attendees are fortunate enough to have money in the family to support base, and then advanced education. Liberal arts graduates who then go on to post graduate degrees become the top 10% of leaders in education, medicine, the "Arts", government and yes, in business.

The world is changing, and the world of the 1950's is cannot be remotely compared to that of today's Millennials.
.................................................. .................................................. .....

Fortunately the dream lives on. Sometimes, the dream comes true. The advantage of coming through an advanced education without overwhelming debt cannot be ignored. The freedom to go where the spirit directs is given to the few. Thankfully they often give back.

For those who persevere through their own will and determination... I would agree... "The world owes them a living".
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:43 PM   #46
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Agreed, but some people (myself included) are fortunate to have a natural aptitude for skills that are highly valued. In my case, it led to a successful career as a software engineer. If, on the other hand, I had been born into a different world where (for example) art and musical ability were the most-valued skills, and STEM-related fields were not valued, I would have been screwed.
It is not just having the skills that are highly valued. It is also learning how to use these skills to properly fit into an environment where others will find you productive. I have seen many, many examples of this in my life.

Having a math and computer science background got me a summer internship program at Megacorp. However, how I used those skills to accomplish things, and relate to people, it was got me hired permanently and started my career.

The year I started full time at Megacorp, they hired another student from my school. He was also a math and computer science major. However, he was very full of himself. And did not, as a summer intern, hesitate to tell others that they did not know how to do their job because he was smarter and would be getting a degree from an Ivy League school. He would also do other socially inept/obnoxious things. I tried to console him a couple of times, but he would not listen. At the end of the internship, Megacorp did not offer him a job.

And it was not just Megacorp. A few years later, DW and I ordered a pizza for dinner... and guess who shows up as the delivery person? And it was not just a "side hustle"... even with a math and computer science background and skills from an Ivy League school, they could not overcome his social skills in believing everyone else was wrong and he was right... and he continued to wear out his welcome in many places. It was not until he was almost 40 that he figured out he was the problem, not everyone else.

Having natural aptitude for something is a good start. But you need to work on that aptitude and develop it in conjunction with other skills. There are many "natural" athletes who are surpassed by those willing to work hard and longer to improve their skills and to be prepared to take advantage of opportunities.
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Old 11-29-2018, 06:39 PM   #47
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And it was not just Megacorp. A few years later, DW and I ordered a pizza for dinner... and guess who shows up as the delivery person?
Apparently there are lots of those folks in the world. When I had about 12-15 years on at work, things were not progressing the way I had thought they would and I had plenty of company. But at the same time I was halfway or more to a pension that while far from luxurious would allow me to be a comfortable bum, and put me in a position in which I would never have to work again if I didn't want to. I decided to tough it out and things did get better - much better than I had ever thought they would. Okay, that's a crap shoot, it could have very well turned out worse had the moon & stars aligned differently.

But a bunch of guys did decide to head for greener pastures and they quit. One in particular was especially noisy about what fools the "staying" ones were for staying with it. Fast-forward about five years and we (DW and I) were at my sister's house one day and she decided to order out for pizza. Guess who showed up as the delivery guy?

Ya just never know.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:25 PM   #48
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...There's nothing wrong with studying Freud, or reading different authors, or do some painting, etc..., after you are done with tending to the farm animals, or after the harvest season and you are waiting for winter to arrive. People did that for centuries. They did not expect to be paid just to read and study.
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They also lived in caves and died at 30-35 for many centuries. So what?

Hopefully "what we did for centuries" isn't the bar against which we measure ourselves these days.
Fair enough.

My point was that, people do things for personal enrichment, even nerdy guys like me who were fortunate to have technical skills and knowledge that were in demand, allowing me to make a good living. I cannot paint, or write poetry. But I read, and read quite a few books to learn new things outside of my technical area.

However, if you like these activities so much that it occupies your entire day, it is going to be tough turning them into money. To get somebody else to pay you money, you have to do something for them, not for your own personal enrichment and enjoyment.

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The thread title is certainly misleading, I don’t see that attitude expressed anywhere in the article.
It is true. The author resigns to the fact that he cannot make a lot of money with what he likes to do. He knew and accepted it.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:04 AM   #49
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I gave up being a radio announcer or a guitarist in a rock band (not to mention double-naught spy or international playboy) because the odds of me making a “living” looked slim...

Thankfully, I chose a slightly more secure route, though with no chance of ever being a star of any sort.

FIRE, or at least my version, was on my radar for twenty years plus, so I planned for it as best I could, but I always told others, many who likely weren’t doing much planning, that as soon as I figured out how to live on a hundred dollars a month I’d retire!

Thankfully it’s better than that...
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:42 AM   #50
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It's not just Millennial generation,

I know of a woman, about 50, has a PhD in Comparative Literature from an Ivy League school. Has never held any job. Her occupation is collecting rent on the 2 crumbing rentals she inherited as she runs them into the ground by lack of maintenance.

This story will not end well.
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:57 AM   #51
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This story will not end well.
Oh, I dunno - someone will likely pick them up for a song and make a bundle.
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:44 PM   #52
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It's not just Millennial generation,

I know of a woman, about 50, has a PhD in Comparative Literature from an Ivy League school. Has never held any job. Her occupation is collecting rent on the 2 crumbing rentals she inherited as she runs them into the ground by lack of maintenance.

This story will not end well.
So much for that -pride of ownership- theory
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:21 AM   #53
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Supposedly I did everything wrong in life.

I attended a Community College and a third-rate upper-level university.

My undergraduate degree is in Journalism (liberal arts).

My first Master's degree was also non-STEM.

I married a man who didn't have money or connections.

I'm superstitious, sentimental, and tend to speak up when I shouldn't, and keep quiet when I should speak up.

Hmmm.
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:33 AM   #54
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Supposedly I did everything wrong in life.

I attended a Community College and a third-rate upper-level university.

My undergraduate degree is in Journalism (liberal arts).

My first Master's degree was also non-STEM.

I married a man who didn't have money or connections.

I'm superstitious, sentimental, and tend to speak up when I shouldn't, and keep quiet when I should speak up.

Hmmm.
Is it too late for you to start over?
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:19 PM   #55
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Bwah-hah-ha!

Do you ever have those reveries where you think "If I suddenly found myself in my younger body circa 19XX, how would I proceed, given what I know now?"

I have, and frankly, I don't second-guess my younger self all that much. She did the very best she could, given what she had to work with at the time.

Although, I would not have gone along with buying rental property again in 2003. I know why we did it, but even then I had serious misgivings.

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Is it too late for you to start over?
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:47 PM   #56
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I gave up being a radio announcer or a guitarist in a rock band (not to mention double-naught spy or international playboy) because the odds of me making a “living” looked slim...

Thankfully, I chose a slightly more secure route, though with no chance of ever being a star of any sort.

A couple of guys I went to college with wanted to make it in sports, one the Olympics and the other the NBA. I just thought sure, small midwest school with no history of churning out pro athletes, what are the odds? Both made it! They are in my school's (very short) sports hall of fame listings. I guess I will never become famous at anything because I would look at the slim odds and not even try.
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Old 12-02-2018, 06:54 AM   #57
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I have been very fortunate, in that the things I wanted to do and could do successfully happened to be relatively well compensated. I'd like to live in a society that also finds a way to have poets and artists and musicians.
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:15 AM   #58
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A couple of guys I went to college with wanted to make it in sports, one the Olympics and the other the NBA. I just thought sure, small midwest school with no history of churning out pro athletes, what are the odds? Both made it! They are in my school's (very short) sports hall of fame listings. I guess I will never become famous at anything because I would look at the slim odds and not even try.
Yeah... the sports thing rings a bell. Gave my failing memory a nudge to look back at the transition from school to the rest of my life. Forgive a few moments of ego:
The college years were a mix of hard study, my continued long distance romance with jeanie, and an average of 3 hours a day working out, every day of the year. My sport was swimming. Sadly, no opportunity for a professional future.
After three years of high school swimming, where I was on the All-american team every year, and first in the nation as a senior... on to college, where I was on the AA team for four years. Topped off by a third in the NCAA's in my junior year and a close second as a senior... I missed the 56 Melbourne Olympic and Pan Am games in Mexico in 1957 because I had to work those summers as I dropped to a grade average of B- and lost $300 from my scholarship.

Then... graduation in 1958. A side ways offer to become coach of my college team in the following year when my coach retired. that was not to be. Graduated in June, married in July... off to IOLC (ROTC version of OCS) and a new baby the following May.

Though a medical school scholarship was offered, no way to afford it with a family, so the best offer came from the Sears Roebuck Management school, that set the job course in retail for the rest of my years before retirement. $90/week wasn't bad in those days, and just as much as my dad was making at the time.
..........................................end of brag.

Let's see... hmmm... the subject was "The world owes me a living"... oh well!
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:32 AM   #59
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I thought about majoring in a liberal art (English) long ago and becoming a writer, but I figured I needed something to fall back on that would provide me some money in the meantime. I picked that alternative career primarily out of interest, rather than a desire to make money, but employability was definitely part of the equation. Naturally, that "fall back" path turned into my actual career.

Artists serve a very important function in society, and they're sometimes wonderful people. I don't like the "going on the dole" aspect, though, because to me, the idea of being an artist is coupled with the idea of "starving artist" and is bound up with the sense that being an artist is a Calling, similar in some ways to the priesthood -- you accept that you will suffer deprivations for your craft, you won't have (or care about) the things other people do, you have a higher purpose. It also means I have to work to support you.

But that's not a big deal. There are certainly more objectionable cases of relying on government assistance than this. I won't go there, though.

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I recall a teacher from my junior high days many many years ago saying "the world does owe you a living BUT you have to work for it".

Comments?
Seems like a contradiction.
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:54 AM   #60
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A classmate of my then 17 year old niece, told her I'm picking that school because they have a sport media/journalism degree and I want to be an anchor for ESPN...good luck with that one buddy...
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