Three strikes and you're out?

[ziggy29]

... to accomplish at least the first two goals of a justice system and to my mind the two most important ones:
1)protect society
2)deter future crimes
3)rehabilitate criminals to be productive
4)punish bad guys

Aren't #1 and #2 really the same thing here, though?

 

[harley]

I agree with you Harley, but these people who do the minor petty stuff never have the money to pay the fines and penalties. So instead of locking these people up at tax payer expense for 30-40 k a year, I advocate 3 hard swats with a cane. Sends a painful reminder that crime doesn't pay. You could probably administer justice to about 30 people a hour in a timely manner. They could pay for their own hydrogen peroxide at home to keep the wounds from getting infected. If memory serves me Singapore has had a historically low crime rate. Correlation, perhaps? It sure would deter me from grabbing the pizza without paying for it.

Truthfully, I wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as it stopped with caning and didn't escalate into cutting off hands. And again, only for crimes against people or property. Online gambling or smoking pot or many other current crimes shouldn't result in a flogging.

 

[REWahoo]

I say just buy them some stocks.

 

[ziggy29]

I say just buy them some stocks.

And those don't pay dividends.

 

[REWahoo]

And those don't pay dividends.

Except to the victims...

 

[Texas Proud]

I agree with Harley and Ziggy... 3 strikes is a cop out by the legislature forced upon the judiciary that was to lazy to handle career criminals...


As an example... I was on a jury for a guy that was charged with a DWI... not the worse crime out there, but some people think it is... he did not have an accident nor did he injure anyone...

But, the prosecutor filed it as a felony DWI... the law in Texas allows this to be a felony if there was previous convictions (not exactly sure of this as it was many years ago)...

Now, here was the interesting part... after being found guilty, the minimum sentence was 20 years as he had been found guilty of two previous felonies... (we knew this before we were on the jury)..... but, after being found guilty we also found out about the 60 or so plea deals he had where he would serve 30 days to a year for this or that... the prosecutor told us afterward that they just wanted to put him in jail for about 5 to 10 years since he was not going to change... (the time he would be in was with good behavior).... we actually gave him 45 years which means he will serve 15 and be out....

The guy was in his mid 40s and had spent half of his adult life in jail or prison.... he was the kind of person you do not want on the street... but, I would have not wanted a 3 strikes rule here just in case the circumstances were such that it did not make sense to punish the guy... also, from what I understand, 3 strikes means no parole... in Texas, only the death penalty does not have parole... (again, from what I know)....

 

[Mulligan]

Truthfully, I wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as it stopped with caning and didn't escalate into cutting off hands. And again, only for crimes against people or property. Online gambling or smoking pot or many other current crimes shouldn't result in a flogging.

Again I agree with you. I'm probably an extreme right wing and left wing nut at the same time. I like my fantasy world of quick punishment including caning (yes, I spare the fingers and hands being cut off ) , but I also have libertarian leanings, too. If you want to live under a bridge and smoke dope all day, and hold a tin cup up on a street long enough to buy you some beans and more weed, power to you. As long as you arent stealing from me or anyone to get it. On certain offenses, I wouldnt mind them having their record expunged after they took their beating for breaking the law. 30-40 years ago people could change and get back into society by concealing their past. Now through the internet and such, you cant run from your record. I wonder how many people have tried to change, but cant get a job because their past keeps biting them in the butt, forcing them to go back to their life of crime. And don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of online gambling being illegal, when we have casinos everywhere and government sponsored lotteries. Legalize it! Rant over.

 

[growing_older]

but, I would have not wanted a 3 strikes rule here just in case the circumstances were such that it did not make sense to punish the guy.

How could it be the case that you wouldn't want to punish the guy? He has two prior felony convictions, 60 prior arrests for other offenses that went to jail time (but not conviction because he plead GUILTY) and he was lucky he didn't kill or maim someone when he decided to DWI again. This is someone who doesn't seem to learn or modify his behavior and is not safe to be in public. The public should have been protected from him long ago.

 

[Texas Proud]

How could it be the case that you wouldn't want to punish the guy? He has two prior felony convictions, 60 prior arrests for other offenses that went to jail time (but not conviction because he plead GUILTY) and he was lucky he didn't kill or maim someone when he decided to DWI again. This is someone who doesn't seem to learn or modify his behavior and is not safe to be in public. The public should have been protected from him long ago.

I was not taking about THIS guy.... but what if the guy was a criminal and when he was very young and got two felonies (lets say as minor a felony as you can get)....

Now, he had not done anything wrong for 30 years... but needed some medicine to prevent his sick child from dying... so he robs a pharmacy to get that medicine (sure, not likely to happen, just making this up for my purpose)... this is now his third felony... if I were on a jury I would find him guilty of this felony, but I would not want him to go to jail for life without having the possibility of getting out... the three strike rule says that we do not have a choice....


As for the case I mentioned, I was one who wanted to give the guy 60 years.... (there were two who voted for life).... but we were told no matter what sentence we gave the guy he was out in 15 years....

 

[ziggy29]

Now, he had not done anything wrong for 30 years... but needed some medicine to prevent his sick child from dying... so he robs a pharmacy to get that medicine (sure, not likely to happen, just making this up for my purpose)... this is now his third felony... if I were on a jury I would find him guilty of this felony, but I would not want him to go to jail for life without having the possibility of getting out... the three strike rule says that we do not have a choice....

There have certainly been cases where these "mandatory minimum sentencing" laws have led to a jury acquitting people they knew were guilty, because they didn't feel the crime justified the mandatory minimum punishment.

 

[urn2bfree]

Lots to respond to-

ONE - Protecting society and deterring crime are NOT the same-
One could protected from a dangerous person so he cannot commit more crimes and it may have no deterrent on other like minded criminals. Death penalty opponents claim this the case with the death penalty...As it is carried out today (long long times between and crime and punishment- such a disconnect between punishment and deterrence wpuld not be surprising at all)

TWO- I completely agree that the drug laws and prostitution laws and gambling laws are a compete and utter waste of government resources. The dangers of any of those "crimes" all boil down to REAL stuff that hurts other people- theft to pay for bad choices- so lets just concentrate on catching the thieves and the muggers, etc...let people be free to make bad choices. (the drug interdiction is particularly ludicrous -easily demonstrated in every prison in the USA- where one can find all sorts of illegal drugs. IF a walled in heavily guarded fortress cannot keep drugs out, how are we supposed to keep them out of thousands of miles of freely travelled border?)

THREE-repeat VIOLENT repeat offenders? Call me a complete barbarian- but a serial rapist should have his penis removed. Serial violent criminals -take out their eyes and see how dangerous they are. Harsh? Let the punishment fit the crime...I don't expect many to agree- and that does not change my viewpoint.

 

[eridanus]

Now, he had not done anything wrong for 30 years... but needed some medicine to prevent his sick child from dying... so he robs a pharmacy to get that medicine (sure, not likely to happen, just making this up for my purpose)... this is now his third felony...

Actually, this is very similar to a real case in California. It's a case that argues against 3 strikes. The judge even acknowledged that the punishment was far too extreme.

This is how California handles 3 strikes:

A Primer: Three Strikes: The Impact After More Than a Decade

"Time Since Prior Conviction Not Considered. The length of time between the prior and new felony conviction does not affect the imposition of the new sentence, so serious and violent felony offenses committed many years before a new offense can be counted as prior strikes."

So, yeah, you could be a hoodlum in your youth and not do anything for 30 years, steal a piece of pizza or some diapers*, and you go to prison for 25 years.


*No kidding. Petty theft can be classified as a felony in California.

 

[Nuiloa]

I don't disagree with the 3 strikes law, because for every crime they have committed, there are probably dozens of others where they haven't been caught.

However, I think the law should be only for crimes against others where injury, or potential injury, is caused (armed robbery is an example of a potential injury; repeat DWI is another). Stealing pizza would not count, unless a weapon was involved.

That said, I would make punishment for non-violent crimes a lot more painful: full restitution plus significant penalties. And, if the criminal doesn't pay, then his assets and those of his family can be sold. So, if you want to steal a piece of pizza, go ahead - but you will lose your house and your car. See if that pizza is still as attractive if you end up making your aging mother homeless. (note: Israel used to do this in Palestine - young men knew that if they wanted to martyr themselves, that's just fine but, after they were dead, their families were destitute because the Israelis bulldozed their houses).

 

[eridanus]

I don't disagree with the 3 strikes law, because for every crime they have committed, there are probably dozens of others where they haven't been caught.

A fair and just Justice system only cares about the convictions and not hypothetical crimes that were "probably" committed because -- look at them! -- you just know that they're bad people.

 

[Nuiloa]

A fair and just Justice system only cares about the convictions and not hypothetical crimes that were "probably" committed because -- look at them! -- you just know that they're bad people.

If they got caught 3 times, chances are good that these are not the only criminal acts they have done. If so, they have been spectacularly unlucky 3 times in a row and probably should re-consider a life of crime. No matter what they look like.

 

[eridanus]

If they got caught 3 times, chances are good that these are not the only criminal acts they have done.

Again, a fair and just Justice system doesn't care about the "chances" of other crimes that have been committed...because you think so. It only cares about convictions.

Since you seem insistent on what you "know" about people that have been accused of a crime -- regardless of facts -- I can only hope that you never serve on a jury in the US.

 

[braumeister]

Alternately, isolate them in a barbed wire surrounded region carved out of some of the northern/midwestern states and let them establish their own government there.

Isn't that pretty much what England did by sending criminals to its colonies (Australia, North America, the West Indies, etc.)? France had Devil's Island (e.g., Papillon). The USSR had Siberia (the Gulag).

Not sure if it was the best solution for them all, but it was apparently politically popular.

 

[W2R]

If they got caught 3 times, chances are good that these are not the only criminal acts they have done. If so, they have been spectacularly unlucky 3 times in a row and probably should re-consider a life of crime. No matter what they look like.

They'd be even unluckier if these were the only 3 criminal acts they had done, and they got caught 3 times! I agree 100%, they should re-consider a life of crime and hopefully they have the chance to do that, if they are incarcerated due to the 3 strikes law.

 

[W2R]

Isn't that pretty much what England did by sending criminals to its colonies (Australia, North America, the West Indies, etc.)? France had Devil's Island (e.g., Papillon). The USSR had Siberia (the Gulag).

Not sure if it was the best solution for them all, but it was apparently politically popular.

Yes, I guess it was. As you mention, many convicts were sent to Australia, and also to Georgia here in our own U.S.:

The misconception of Georgia's having been founded as a debtor or penal colony persists due to the numerous English convicts who were sentenced to transportation to Georgia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Georgia_(U.S._state)

 

[Nuiloa]

Since you seem insistent on what you "know" about people that have been accused of a crime -- regardless of facts -- I can only hope that you never serve on a jury in the US.

Worked for the police; worked undercover for vice squad; worked in jails; worked for lawyers; worked as a paralegal.

Sister is an assistant warden; other sister runs prison rehab programs;

Brother-in-law a police officer; other 2 BILs are corrections officers in maximum security prison; assorted cousins are cops and/or COs.

And it's a very good thing that I don't ever serve on juries. My personal preference would be '3 strikes and you're dead".

 

[travelover]

Me too! I couldn't agree more. Alternately, isolate them in a barbed wire surrounded region carved out of some of the northern/midwestern states and let them establish their own government there.

Ahem. I was thinking more like New Orleans.

 

[Mulligan]

Ahem. I was thinking more like New Orleans.

I agree travelover. Sorry W2R, but the criminals most be punished by suffering through those hot high humidity summers to thoroughly teach them a lesson

 

[W2R]

Ahem. I was thinking more like New Orleans.

I agree travelover. Sorry W2R, but the criminals most be punished by suffering through those hot high humidity summers to thoroughly teach them a lesson

EEK!!!

 

[eridanus]

Worked for the police; worked undercover for vice squad; worked in jails; worked for lawyers; worked as a paralegal.

Sister is an assistant warden; other sister runs prison rehab programs;

Brother-in-law a police officer; other 2 BILs are corrections officers in maximum security prison; assorted cousins are cops and/or COs.

Then you should know how the justice system works. It requires evidence; innocent people are convicted because of "feelings"...

Texas Man Imprisoned For Wife's Death To Be Freed

...and the need to close a case.

Crime lab probe looks beyond Harris County - Houston Chronicle

"According to the audit, lab workers were insufficiently trained, did not follow standard scientific protocols and gave trial testimony based on questionable lab results."

(Emphasis added.)

And it's a very good thing that I don't ever serve on juries. My personal preference would be '3 strikes and you're dead".

Yeah, that'd be more popular in other countries. Like Saudi Arabia or Iran.