Understanding Brexit

[Oz investor]

Mdlerth,

LOL

*** As an infant I might have been dropped on my head once or twice. But I don't remember; I was pretty young then. ***

ever thought of comedy ... ( it doesn't matter if it is true as long as the crowd laughs ... and pays to come back for more )

but indeed the ( father's side ) family sport was arguing .... they just took any opposing viewpoint and twisted the argument around for the entertainment ( including seamlessly switching sides to see if the opponent would automatically switch arguments as well )

 

[Popeye]

but indeed the ( father's side ) family sport was arguing .... they just took any opposing viewpoint and twisted the argument around for the entertainment ( including seamlessly switching sides to see if the opponent would automatically switch arguments as well )

Sounds familiar. Irish blood, plus alcohol, plus some wagers on (American) football and away we go!

 

[bmcgonig]

Interesting. I do think there was an age distinction within the voting population for that issue. Think I heard the older Brits (40+) had a stronger tendency to vote for Brexit.

Shortly before the vote, the BBC had a feature on a 55 year old man who planned to vote for Brexit. In the piece, they went with him to the neighborhood of his childhood. He said "this was all British when I grew up. Now the neighborhood is completely middle easterners. Looking at the residents of this area, you would never know you were in England."

Many young people don't like Brexit because they feel more European than British. They grew up in assimilated heterogenous neighbourhoods and like them. They went to school and University with different colors and races and enjoyed the mix. They see breaking away from Europe as a step backwards. They really don't think it's important whose rules they have to obey.

There might be a second referendum on the final plan. Noone knew exactly what they were voting for anyway. Some thought hard exit. Others soft. Some thought they'd be getting a fortune for the NHS. Noone considered the Irish border question.

Because of that i feel it fair enough to vote on the final plan.

 

[I was misinformed]

Sir Humphrey Appleby on Europe-UK relations

A delightful place to begin is by watching a 1980s British comedy program called "Yes, Minister". .........

A couple of brilliant excerpts where the cynical civil servant Sir Humphrey explains his take on European relations to his skeptical, but somewhat more idealistic and pro-Europe, minister.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AA84547124F8D12F3673AA84547124F8&&FORM=VRDGAR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...DC4FBC1C04A2B0B895F8DC4FBC1C04A2&&FORM=VRDGAR

Of course these reflect concerns from ~35 years ago....

 

[DrRoy]

Seriously? Where did you get that idea from? That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. Why, anyone can plainly see that one side is not only right, but completely virtuous as well, while the other side is not just wrong but downright evil.

Where do these people come from?

My first laugh of the day.

 

[Pellice]

Yep...I get it. The thing that always get me.....and it's true in the finance world as well (and probably everywhere else).....is that there about half of the people who are convinced that they are right.....and everybody else is wrong. And of course...the other half are believing the same. Neither side even seems to consider that they might be wrong.

That's fine for theoretical arguments, or ones where an attitude adjustment is called for. In the case of Brexit, extremely consequential decisions, ones that decide whether millions of people slide further into poverty, must be made right now. There is no more time. And the efforts being made right now ARE to find an area in the middle, between a hard(er) or soft(er) Brexit. It's not fair to say that "no one is trying."

I admire the EU. We in the US forget how small these countries are. We didn't experience the physical disaster of two world wars (which, to one Ho Chi Minh was in fact a civil war). The vision of the founders - to devise a structure to prevent more wars and to increase the general prosperity - has been wildly successful. The economic security of the citizens of Europe has never been greater. The physical security has never been greater. And it's been accomplished gradually and peacefully.

Would each of the tiny countries be better off negotiating with the US or China or Russia one by one? In a hugely interconnected world, can any country, let alone a tiny one, be said to "determine its own destiny?" That's a slogan, not a reality.

The problem with declining standards of living, in Britain, in the US, and elsewhere, is a problem of income inequality. The EU, with its advanced health care for all - for all its citizens (an achievement the US cannot equal) - its assortment of benefits and income assurances, its "public goods" such as transport, is an effort to combat that income inequality.

 

[F4mandolin]

That's fine for theoretical arguments, or ones where an attitude adjustment is called for. In the case of Brexit, extremely consequential decisions, ones that decide whether millions of people slide further into poverty, must be made right now. There is no more time. And the efforts being made right now ARE to find an area in the middle, between a hard(er) or soft(er) Brexit. It's not fair to say that "no one is trying."

I admire the EU. We in the US forget how small these countries are. We didn't experience the physical disaster of two world wars (which, to one Ho Chi Minh was in fact a civil war). The vision of the founders - to devise a structure to prevent more wars and to increase the general prosperity - has been wildly successful. The economic security of the citizens of Europe has never been greater. The physical security has never been greater. And it's been accomplished gradually and peacefully.

Would each of the tiny countries be better off negotiating with the US or China or Russia one by one? In a hugely interconnected world, can any country, let alone a tiny one, be said to "determine its own destiny?" That's a slogan, not a reality.

The problem with declining standards of living, in Britain, in the US, and elsewhere, is a problem of income inequality. The EU, with its advanced health care for all - for all its citizens (an achievement the US cannot equal) - its assortment of benefits and income assurances, its "public goods" such as transport, is an effort to combat that income inequality.

The only point I was trying to make......is that people on each side of the argument (generally speaking) are totally convinced that they are right....and they don't even consider that even though they have a perfectly good view/opinion on the subject....that there is a decent chance they have it wrong. I look at the Remain and Leave side and I can argue it either way (and have). I don't know what the right way is.....and I know I don't know and assume there is a decent chance that either way could easily be the better direction to go in. It just drives me a bit nuts when people are convinced that their way is the only way and ignore the other sides view.

 

[limeyx]

I have been looking at the British system for two years and have barely wrapped my head around it.

May came out with a softish Brexit plan and the hard liners are jumping ship saying it is worse than staying in the EU. So there may be a leadership challenge or not. The whole thing is a giant mess and no one knows how it ends.

I'm English and I have no clue. It's *somewhat* similar to the US in that there are effectively only two main parties but if the winning party doesn't have enough seats they can end up needing to partner with a minority ("green" for instance) party to rule



Beyond that it's pretty much impenetrable

 

[Music Lover]

The only point I was trying to make......is that people on each side of the argument (generally speaking) are totally convinced that they are right....and they don't even consider that even though they have a perfectly good view/opinion on the subject....that there is a decent chance they have it wrong. I look at the Remain and Leave side and I can argue it either way (and have). I don't know what the right way is.....and I know I don't know and assume there is a decent chance that either way could easily be the better direction to go in. It just drives me a bit nuts when people are convinced that their way is the only way and ignore the other sides view.

The opinion that both sides of the issue are equally valid can also drive some people nuts...

I understand the logic of the "leave" group...I am less able to understand the logic of the "stay" group who are perfectly fine with unelected people in a different country setting policies that they must follow.

 

[jim584672]

The opinion that both sides of the issue are equally valid can also drive some people nuts...

I understand the logic of the "leave" group...I am less able to understand the logic of the "stay" group who are perfectly fine with unelected people in a different country setting policies that they must follow.

The EU parliament is elected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2019

Also the EU as an organization requires unanimous consent or super majority for it to do anything. The UK has helped to create and guide the EU since it started.

The four pillars (free movement of goods, services, capital and labour) are a fantastic breakthrough considering Europe's history of wars and infighting. Also it prevents damaging protectionism between its members.

I hope the Leavers realize the "brown" people are mostly from outside the EU, and the UK has full control of those borders. The UK has ways to control intra EU migration by requiring employment within 3 months, but strangely it has never implemented things like registration on arrival and reporting like most other EU countries.

 

[F4mandolin]

The EU parliament is elected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2019

Also the EU as an organization requires unanimous consent or super majority for it to do anything. The UK has helped to create and guide the EU since it started.

The four pillars (free movement of goods, services, capital and labour) are a fantastic breakthrough considering Europe's history of wars and infighting. Also it prevents damaging protectionism between its members.

I hope the Leavers realize the "brown" people are mostly from outside the EU, and the UK has full control of those borders. The UK has ways to control intra EU migration by requiring employment within 3 months, but strangely it has never implemented things like registration on arrival and reporting like most other EU countries.

Too many separations.....people vote, for the people that vote? Technically correct I guess. The rules that come down the line from Brussels just seem to come out of nowhere for most people in the UK.



The "Leavers" I know....it isn't a "brown" thing. Another bias that isn't true for most people....fake news? I could easily say that the people I know only want to Remain so it's easier to go on vacation (not a good reason to stay in the EU)(unless....you love vacations). But....also something I wouldn't just want to say since it would have an obvious bias....

 

[limeyx]

The EU parliament is elected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2019

Also the EU as an organization requires unanimous consent or super majority for it to do anything. The UK has helped to create and guide the EU since it started.

The four pillars (free movement of goods, services, capital and labour) are a fantastic breakthrough considering Europe's history of wars and infighting. Also it prevents damaging protectionism between its members.

I hope the Leavers realize the "brown" people are mostly from outside the EU, and the UK has full control of those borders. The UK has ways to control intra EU migration by requiring employment within 3 months, but strangely it has never implemented things like registration on arrival and reporting like most other EU countries.

Agree. The EU definitely has issues but I think leaving is short-sighted and backward looking and is a huge mistake

I guess only time will tell for sure though

 

[limeyx]

Too many separations.....people vote, for the people that vote? Technically correct I guess. The rules that come down the line from Brussels just seem to come out of nowhere for most people in the UK.



The "Leavers" I know....it isn't a "brown" thing. Another bias that isn't true for most people....fake news? I could easily say that the people I know only want to Remain so it's easier to go on vacation (not a good reason to stay in the EU)(unless....you love vacations). But....also something I wouldn't just want to say since it would have an obvious bias....

The leavers I know are afraid the Turkish will be better benefit scammers than they themselves are (sadly these are members of my extended family)

 

[Music Lover]

TI hope the Leavers realize the "brown" people are mostly from outside the EU, and the UK has full control of those borders.

The "stay" people made the claim that those who want to leave hate "brown" people, but that doesn't mean its true. They also made many other unproven or false claims about those who voted to leave.

What's the point having a referendum if the powers that be simply ignore it because it didn't go the way they hoped?

 

[jim584672]

The leavers I know are afraid the Turkish will be better benefit scammers than they themselves are (sadly these are members of my extended family)

Turkey is not a part of the EU. If the UK stayed in the EU it would have veto power on new members. I forgot BoJo was trying to get Turkey admitted.

 

[jim584672]

The "stay" people made the claim that those who want to leave hate "brown" people, but that doesn't mean its true. They also made many other unproven or false claims about those who voted to leave.

What's the point having a referendum if the powers that be simply ignore it because it didn't go the way they hoped?

Seem to remember ending FoM was a huge part of it. Also remember this poster:

 

[MichaelB]

Thanks for an interesting discussion