Watching the trainwreck

[dex]

I am rather uneasily watching my oldest son's upcoming trainwreck. I wish I could prevent it, but I don't really think that I can.

What are your thoughts on how you will handle all of this?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

We also set the example by making good on all our [-]threats[/-] promises as they passed through their teen years.

Bingo.

The kids still talk about my son getting a choice of dessert at lunch, or a frozen custard trip after dinner. He had dessert, was refused his frozen custard trip despite much drama. The main thing is that he still remembers it, trivial as it was.

 

[Katsmeow]

What are your thoughts on how you will handle all of this?

If he ends up broke and evicted, we will not let him move back in here. I hate the idea of him not having a place to live, but I also can't believe that -- in his situation -- having him come back here would do anything of lasting good for him. Of course, he can come here for dinner, could ask us for advice, and so on. But, I'm not inclined to give financial assistance (except for tuition in certain circumstances we've explained to him).

Now....let's say he turned everything around, was supporting himself, etc. Let's say that he had a job loss or illness and needed a temporary place to stay. I could see in that situation allowing an adult child to come home temporarily or providing other assistance providing that adult child was diligent working to get employed or so on. I'm not talking about that kind of situation which I think has to be individually handled.

 

[Sue J]

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's so hard to watch your children make mistakes but it is his life and at 19 he needs to live by his decisions.

It's possible that he needs to get hungry and cold and live in less than ideal conditions, but on his own terms. It sounds like he wants independence even if it's poorly done.

As for financial help, I'd only go as far as a month or two of car insurance and maybe his startup rent costs. You don't owe him his unused college expenses. Keep that in case he needs college tuition help later.

 

[Katsmeow]

FWIW, we were consistent with him, didn't always give in, etc. We did make it clear what our expectations were in terms of going to school, working, etc. I don't believe that everyone has to go to college and some are not suited to it. I've always said, however, that it is important to either go to college or get other training for a job and that we would pay for that (we wouldn't pay if making D's and F's). The one time we did give in was when he didn't have money saved for books. He had been working and then had a major car problem and used all his money for car repairs. Given that situation we agreed to loan him the money for the first semester books. Maybe we shouldn't have but I thought it was reasonable at the time.

 

[Katsmeow]

As for financial help, I'd only go as far as a month or two of car insurance and maybe his startup rent costs. You don't owe him his unused college expenses. Keep that in case he needs college tuition help later.

Oh, we're not giving him all that...just what we would have spent on room and board this semester which was less than $2000.

 

[haha]

Kats, I am really sorry that you are going through this difficult phase. It seems to be an unfortunately common aspect of US parent-child relationships.

It hurts, and it produces fear. I have a nephew who went through much of this, and unfortunately got sidewiped by the law along the way. Drugs are the biggie, IMO, as it changes the equation to one of great peril. Even smoking weed they cannot pass an employment exam, and with no money to buy rent, food, gasoline or drugs they are tempted to start stealing and/or dealing Once they start stealing or dealing they are exposed to a world of hurt.

In nephew's case, he was charged with dealing, but his older GF got her old BF, a criminal lawyer, to represent him on the cheap. My sis and BIL had to come up with $5 k or so, and he got off.

Then he promptly got her pregnant. She had been told that she was infertile, as she was going through an early menopause. So she decided no way am I going to lose this baby, and Dear Neph. was on his way to fatherhood.

She told him, you can stay if you work and pay for rent and food, otherwise get your A$$ out of here.

So far, 8 months after she was born, he is a happy enough, and more importantly he has become a hard working clean and sober Daddy. So good things can happen. They managed to get health insurance through her father's company.

For my part, my kids were also totally self directed, but fortunately for me in more socially acceptable ways. Still, I wish I were a Korean or Indian Papa to whom someone paid attention.

Like Amy Chua says, being a parent in the US is a raw deal. I think young people are catching on to this. In my city, there are newspaper articles and government studies about "how can we get more children?"

I know how- create a less toxic culture. Take all teen and tween oriented crap off the TV, create a modern CCC, let these rebellious youth have a path other than drugs and crime or mooching off middle class parents.
And get a decent tracking system in the schools so by 9th grade or so a non-academically interested young man or woman can get a well paying trade.

Ha

 

[Mulligan]

Man, 'yall are scaring me.......

I've got a 13 year old son who is on the lazy side, and not a self starter at all. He needs constant hand holding to get his homework done, is super slow doing his chores (what little chores he has), will sleep until noon if I let him, etc. Maybe it's just the teenage hormones kicking in.....

On the bright side, he does want to get a job as soon as he can, and I think this is a great idea, but he thinks he wants to get a job as a busboy or in the kitchen at a local Johnny Carinos. He talked to the manager one night when we were in there eating and the manager said he would hire him at 14. Anyone here have any experience working in a restaurant at such a young age? Any issues working so young with older co-workers? I have read/heard that the restaurant biz is full of druggies/partiers and I don't want him exposed to that yet.

Cardude I have experience in that. My first job was at 14 being a busboy, dishwasher at a restuarant. Worked there for 3 years until I went to college. Let me tell you he will be exposed to everything! Workers smoking non stop, would have alcoholics sneaking their bottles in, even a few blowing weed near the out vents! Im not saying they are all like that( or that it happened all the time there), but my experience was that and that was in the 80's mind you. That being said if he is grounded in his upbringing values, he will probably be alright. I actually liked most of my coworkers (everyone was older) and enjoyed working with them. I just politely turned down offers and didnt judge them. In fact it reinforced my desire to go to college and make something out of myself. Learning the true value of a dollar "EARNED", not given to me was invaluable. It also taught me that I wasnt "above" any job. You wouldnt believe how many teenagers "are too good" for their first jobs to be in fast food or restuarant.

 

[FIREd]

After graduating from college with an arts degree, my sister moved back in with my mom. She had a hard time finding jobs and when she worked, she was not making much money. However, the little money she was making was spent on stupid stuff instead of helping my mom pay the bills (my mom herself had a low income despite working overtimes). This was hard enough for my mom to swallow. But when my sister's boyfriend started spending his days (and soon after nights) at my mom's, things got really tense. The boyfriend was pretty lazy and unemployed. His parents were sending him money to help pay for food and rent but he was living and eating for free on my mom's dime which allowed him to spend his money on gadgets, concerts and what not. One night, my mom came home from a hard day of work and found the 2 of them sitting around the table, complaining there was nothing to eat in the house. She gave them 30 days to move out. It was a very tough decision to kick my sister out. Very tough. But I don't think she ever regretted doing it.

My sister went through a period of personal struggle and made many mistakes (like getting into credit card debt). But she is now doing well for herself. She has been with the same employer for 6 years, she still doesn't make a ton of money but manages what she makes quite well. My dad still helps her a little bit. She gets my dad's old cars for which she pays a below-market price and she lives in one of my dad's rentals for which she pays a below-market rent. But, overall, being on her own really taught her how to be a responsible adult. I am very proud of her.

 

[Moemg]

So sorry you are going through this . Nothing is harder than watching our children struggle . After my daughter graduated from college she decided to hang around and still play college life for awhile well I quickly closed the check book and that stopped immediately .

 

[Nords]

One word. Military.
That will get his sorry butt in shape and also get him on track education wise.

I don't know why people think the military is the cure for juvenile delinquency. The all-volunteer force can shape & guide someone's motivation, but it can't light the fire without the volunteer's spark. Right now, with the info Katsmeow has provided about his behavior, I suspect that he'd have a tough time getting through even the Navy's recruit training.

The "military option" might just as well be fulfilled by the Peace Corps, Americorps, or some other service organization. The difference is that they don't give him access to weapons systems, ammunition, and deadly force. So maybe it's a good thing that he's physically disqualified and doesn't have to confront this "option".

I am not going to give him all the money at once. We will pay his first month's rent and his down payment on auto insurance. The rest he will get monthly over a period of a few months. We've told him that when it's gone...it's gone. I would pay tuition if he goes back this fall but not if he goes back years from now, for example. I've been very clearcut on all this.
DH and I really are agreed on the approach to take. He thinks giving him anything (cashwise) is just throwing money away. I agree that he is right but still want to do it and he is cool with that.

Spouse and I have had lots of great parental ideas for financially launching our daughter, but she also appears to need a dose of experiential learning. The best we've been able to do so far is to let her know the parameters, rules, & consequences for handling our money. She's apparently determined to figure out her own processes for handling her own money, and she'll probably slam into a few guardrails along the way. Not our problem anymore. At least she seems to have good support in place at the college and her NROTC unit, and she knows that financial disasters will make it hard for her to get a security clearance.

I think the trick is to make yourself feel good about what you're doing ("I tried and my conscience is clear") while letting the progeny give themselves enough knocks to learn from without actually getting hurt or incarcerated. So a Craigslist rental room seems like a great start (where the roommate experience helps them learn from someone else) while their own solitary apartment might not work out so well. Knowing that they "can always go back to college on Mom's & Dad's money" is a good safety net they can turn to if they crash. It also helps them to know what the rules would be if they tried to boomerang ("You get your room & kitchen privileges but we own the entertainment assets and you have to contribute to groceries & rent") so that they can decide for themselves whether to toughen up and figure it out or go back home in defeat for a while. Heck, even a lot of homeless shelters make their residents clear out every morning.

One of our neighbors said the only way he got his four boys to move out of his house 15 years ago was to keep tightening up the "house rules" until they moved out in disgust. A couple of them actually learned to get along well enough to team up on their own apartment, so in effect he got them to develop their independence by giving them a common enemy to rebel against. Today, with families of their own, they can laugh at what Pops had to do. Another neighbor just could not persuade her son to stop driving without vehicle insurance-- into his mid-20s he was sure he'd keep getting away with it. However after your first bust on this offense the Hawaii police apparently keep an eye out for repeaters. On his third bust he got a few days' jail time and a pile of community service, which finally helped him change his mind about insurance.

Worst case would be your son would have to run out of money, get thrown out of his rental room, and figure out how to crash on a "friend's" couch or sleep in his car until he can straighten out his employment and start saving money. Knowing that he can rely on parental college support, and perhaps your house as a safe place to sleep in for a last-ditch resort, may give him the confidence to get through his self-imposed trials.

Otherwise I'd agree that you're done giving him money, and you might even have to change the locks on your doors. You certainly wouldn't want to be sharing any credit cards or debit cards or other financial accounts with him.

Thus far, my son has shown no interest in drugs, drinking or smoking and has been strong against them. Of course, you never know what will happen in the future. My mother told me that he recently told her that we (his parents) should be happy he doesn't do those things. Of course, we're happy he doesn't (and he knows that) but it just doesn't give him a free pass on everything else....

At least it's not the alcohol/drugs interfering with rational reasoning. Considering my behavior at her age, I'm astounded that our teen apparently didn't inherit my interest in drinking or drugging. Maybe she really was listening to all my liberty stories.

 

[freebird5825]

Disclaimer: No kids
Announcement: I never tell parents what they should do with their kids. At least not within firing distance.

Your original post already had the answer in it. Stop the flow of money. Period.

I wish you luck. I had a very wild older sister who drove my mother batty with her nonsense. My Mom never enabled her by opening the checkbook, but my sister kept trying and trying and trying......it was one excuse after another...each more creative than the last. In her later years, my Mom foolishly relented and gave my sister money to pay for car insurance, rent, unpaid credit card bills. It was never paid back.

 

[Katsmeow]

I think the trick is to make yourself feel good about what you're doing ("I tried and my conscience is clear")

And that is why DH is OK with us giving him some money. It may end up be throwing away the money. BUT the money would give him an adequate transition if he works and is frugal and shows good judgment on spending. If he doesn't do those things -- then I will feed that I tried and my conscience will be clear.

DS in some ways does work hard. His employers usually like him as he does work hard when at work. He likes cooking and likes food so he enjoys his work. However, he isn't -- so far -- willing to work hard to get work above the close to minimum wage level. He wants to be highly paid...but doesn't want to do the work to get there.

 

[dex]

If he ends up broke and evicted, we will not let him move back in here. I hate the idea of him not having a place to live, but I also can't believe that -- in his situation -- having him come back here would do anything of lasting good for him. Of course, he can come here for dinner, could ask us for advice, and so on. But, I'm not inclined to give financial assistance (except for tuition in certain circumstances we've explained to him).

Now....let's say he turned everything around, was supporting himself, etc. Let's say that he had a job loss or illness and needed a temporary place to stay. I could see in that situation allowing an adult child to come home temporarily or providing other assistance providing that adult child was diligent working to get employed or so on. I'm not talking about that kind of situation which I think has to be individually handled.

It looks like you are being fair and consistent with him. That you have been consistent with your words and actions in the past is key - you do as you say. I don't see what more you can do for this adult. You have given him a great opportunity. It is up to him to make something with it.

 

[Texas Proud]

If he ends up broke and evicted, we will not let him move back in here. I hate the idea of him not having a place to live, but I also can't believe that -- in his situation -- having him come back here would do anything of lasting good for him. Of course, he can come here for dinner, could ask us for advice, and so on. But, I'm not inclined to give financial assistance (except for tuition in certain circumstances we've explained to him).

Now....let's say he turned everything around, was supporting himself, etc. Let's say that he had a job loss or illness and needed a temporary place to stay. I could see in that situation allowing an adult child to come home temporarily or providing other assistance providing that adult child was diligent working to get employed or so on. I'm not talking about that kind of situation which I think has to be individually handled.

One of the things that I believe is you do have to stick to your guns... as an example.. in my post I said about the nephew... at one time after being kicked out (I believe he was 19 or 20 at the time)... he did not last that long at a job or living with friends... my sister saw him sitting in the middle of a vacant lot.. (more of a field)... she saw him there for 5 days.. then she called the authorities who came and picked him up... that is when he was taken care of by the state... it was hard for her, but there was nothing else working... it was his decisions that got him in that situation...


As to your last post... I would add... if he was not frittering away his money... IOW, living responsibly... an adult (even a young one) should be able to save enough to live on for 6 months... so I would not even expect DS to come knocking for a place to stay prior to that 6 months time frame... YMMV...

PS.... our company just hired a guy who was out of work because of the crisis... and he made money by selling used cars... he bought them at auction and then fixed them up and sold them... he said it brought in enough for him to live on.. just saying that someone who is not lazy can find SOME way to make money for a short timeframe...

OHHH, I also just remembered seeing a show of American Greed about HealthSouth.... one of the CFOs who had millions was now running his own grass cutting service.. (he being the only employee)... said he was making about $30K and enjoying life... again... finding a way to make money...

 

[Katsmeow]

Your original post already had the answer in it. Stop the flow of money. Period.

One thing that makes it easier is that DH went through some of this with his children from his first marriage. When he and I got married his youngest daughter was in college. She was doing well but would drop classes at a whim and was extending her time in college. One summer she talked him into paying for summer school and he found out she dropped her class and went to Mexico on vacation instead. When she came back he told her she could pay for her 5th year of college herself. He signed over the car title to the car she was driving to her and said insurance and everything was her problem.

She did manage to pay for her last year of school and graduated (not sure what all she did to get there as she wasn't speaking to him during that year).

15+ years later she will say that he did absolutely the right thing.

During the early years we were married each of his kids asked us at various times for loans for various things. We made the loans one time for each child but watched closely to see who paid us back. If we were paid back we would make future loans, if not then we wouldn't. Of course, the one who paid back a loan never asked for any other loans....

 

[cardude]

Cardude I have experience in that. My first job was at 14 being a busboy, dishwasher at a restuarant. Worked there for 3 years until I went to college. Let me tell you he will be exposed to everything! Workers smoking non stop, would have alcoholics sneaking their bottles in, even a few blowing weed near the out vents! Im not saying they are all like that( or that it happened all the time there), but my experience was that and that was in the 80's mind you. That being said if he is grounded in his upbringing values, he will probably be alright. I actually liked most of my coworkers (everyone was older) and enjoyed working with them. I just politely turned down offers and didnt judge them. In fact it reinforced my desire to go to college and make something out of myself. Learning the true value of a dollar "EARNED", not given to me was invaluable. It also taught me that I wasnt "above" any job. You wouldnt believe how many teenagers "are too good" for their first jobs to be in fast food or restuarant.

Good points. Thanks for the insight.

I did all that bad stuff in HS, so that's why I'm trying to shield him from it, but he is going to encounter all the drugs and drinking sooner or later so I guess I just need to tell him to get ready for it.

 

[haha]

The assurance with which our resident experts dispense advice is pretty funny. At most each of us has raised 2-4 kids, and often the results are not exactly in yet.

Yet some of us seem quite sure of ourselves as advisors and prescribers.

Ha

 

[veremchuka]

look i don't have kids but sometimes a perspective from a disconnected source helps. many things have been said that i agree with.

1st i'm not so sure he is all that different than a lot of kids his age. sleeping to noon, lazy, not wanting to work or do chores, etc. a lot of kids are like this. he will grow up and straighten out (i suspect most do) but it will take some time and he'll do it at his pace. he is between child and adult, one day he'll realize the world doesn't owe him anything.

1 point that i think is important is while you love and care for him and want to help - stop. stop enabling his behavior. don't give him money. don't provide shelter and food for free anyway. stop paying for car insurance. it is time for him to start paying his way. if he wants to park his butt under your roof then he has to play by your rules or get out, period. you'd be surprised how fast someone can get motivated when they are no longer allowed to behave the way they want to. this means getting a job or going to school. he has to clean up his mess in the kitchen, room and anywhere he makes a mess. no more laying around watching tv to 3 am and sleeping to 2 pm. assign chores and enforce them. it's called responsibility and at 19 he doesn't have it.

water takes the path of least resistance and so will he. allow him to behavior the way he wants to and he will. tough love is needed. you and your husband must be 100% firm and on the same page or it will not work. i hope this goes well, nothing i have said is meant to offend or hurt you.

 

[bright eyed]

The assurance with which our resident experts dispense advice is pretty funny. At most each of us has raised 2-4 kids, and often the results are not exactly in yet.

Yet some of us seem quite sure of ourselves as advisors and prescribers.

Ha

It's so much easier when you're not the one in the situation at the time!

I saw a documentary about woodstock - where they set up a triage area for people having "bad trips." Then the ones who had recovered were in charge of helping the next batch with their "bad trips." That's about the best we can do eh?!

This forum has been invaluable to kicking my behind when I want to have a pity party, vent or just figure something out (and not just about money). I happily accept others' hindsight as I'd rather not repeat mistakes if/when possible !!

 

[Rustic23]

This may not be your situation, but we found out our kids did not understand the reason for the rules and that was a major problem. One weekend when they were both home we went out and told them we would be back by 10. We got a hotel room and did not come back until 3:00 the next day. We did not answer our phone. When we showed up, needless to say they were both very upset with us. We then set down and explained why we had the rules, of let us know where you are, and when you will be in.

'When you are at school, we don't know what you are doing, and we trust you, however, if you are at home, and we expect to see you at say midnight, and you don't show up, then we begin to worry, and, just like you we worry until we see or hear from you'

Both got the message, and it was never a problem again.

On the work front, our DD, was not the best of students. After about 2.5 years of college straight, no summer breaks, she decided it was not for her. She did not have the cash to move out, and we let her stay at home. She got a job at a department store. After about 8 months, she announced she was going back to school. She said she looked around at the 45 to 50 year old women working with her, and did not want to end up like that. She is now a very successful 7th grade teacher. Both of our kids had a 'come to jesus moment' and both are doing well now. It takes longer for some. The problem is balancing the tough love with keeping them out of trouble.

Good luck.

 

[REWahoo]

It's so much easier when you're not the one in the situation at the time!

I saw a documentary about woodstock - where they set up a triage area for people having "bad trips." Then the ones who had recovered were in charge of helping the next batch with their "bad trips." That's about the best we can do eh?!

This forum has been invaluable to kicking my behind when I want to have a pity party, vent or just figure something out (and not just about money). I happily accept others' hindsight as I'd rather not repeat mistakes if/when possible !!

I guess she told you, ha!

(Don't look now but I think there are some kids on your lawn... )

 

[Katsmeow]

1 point that i think is important is while you love and care for him and want to help - stop. stop enabling his behavior. don't give him money. don't provide shelter and food for free anyway. stop paying for car insurance. it is time for him to start paying his way. if he wants to park his butt under your roof then he has to play by your rules or get out, period. you'd be surprised how fast someone can get motivated when they are no longer allowed to behave the way they want to. this means getting a job or going to school. he has to clean up his mess in the kitchen, room and anywhere he makes a mess. no more laying around watching tv to 3 am and sleeping to 2 pm. assign chores and enforce them. it's called responsibility and at 19 he doesn't have it.

water takes the path of least resistance and so will he. allow him to behavior the way he wants to and he will. tough love is needed. you and your husband must be 100% firm and on the same page or it will not work. i hope this goes well, nothing i have said is meant to offend or hurt you.

It doesn't offend are hurt you...but we are not allowing him to do those things. This is why he is moving out on Monday. We told him he can't stay without following rules. He doesn't want to follow rules so he is going.

We told him he can't sleep all day, can't fail to do his chores, etc. This is why he is going.

We did tell him he needed to be out of the house daily until he found a close by job and a place to live. That got him motivated and he got back his old high school job and found a place to live.

We can debate whether we should send him off with any money. As I mentioned in some other comments, I feel better giving him enough cash that if he is frugal he could make it. It is not a huge amount of money and I feel better doing it.

Apart from that (and DH understands why I feel that way) there are practicalities. If we don't advance him money for rent deposit and first month's rent then he can't move out as he has no money. I don't want to have an ugly scene to force him out penniless particularly when I'm not even really angry at him.

He wants to be on his own and make his own decisions and mistakes. I'm OK with that choice although I do think it is an upcoming trainwreck. So I'll give him a little money to send him off (so to speak) and the rest is up to him.

 

[Katsmeow]

This may not be your situation, but we found out our kids did not understand the reason for the rules and that was a major problem. One weekend when they were both home we went out and told them we would be back by 10. We got a hotel room and did not come back until 3:00 the next day. We did not answer our phone. When we showed up, needless to say they were both very upset with us. We then set down and explained why we had the rules, of let us know where you are, and when you will be in.

I absolutely love your teaching moment there!

For some of my kids you are right -- explaining the rules is very important and does help.

For this son -- we do explain the rules. The reason he doesn't want to follow the rules is because he does understand the reason for them...

When he got home from college last month, we told him that he needed to let us know when he would be home (so we wouldn't worry and could plan family activities) and that if he had a friend over he needed to check with us first and generally the friend could only stay 1 night. Also if he went out to a friends to spend the night he needed to come home the next day unless we talked about it and agreed to something different.

We were upfront about the reasons for this. In the past, he had a tendency to get out of work around the house by always being gone (to work, visiting a friend, etc.) or by having a house guest. We would have a friend over to visit who would then spend the night (OK), stay the entire next day and night and all the time DS would think he didn't have to do his chores. (On occasion we disabused him of this and he didn't like it).

So he understands the reason for the rule but doesn't like it because it keeps him from doing what the rule is meant to prevent....

 

[freebird5825]

The assurance with which our resident experts dispense advice is pretty funny. At most each of us has raised 2-4 kids, and often the results are not exactly in yet.

Yet some of us seem quite sure of ourselves as advisors and prescribers.

Ha

Ah, but I covered myself with a Disclaimer and an Announcement.

As a childless person, I am finding this thread pretty illuminating.
Boy, my Mom sure was a tough one. She taught me to make my own way with very little financial help. Thanks, Mom.