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Old 02-12-2020, 09:29 AM   #41
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I find that 250 kWh/person/day really fascinating and a bit scary.
My wife and I have a total electricity use of about 14,000 kWh/year.
We're well under 10k.

This 250kWh number includes everything from industry, to your vehicle usage, to streetlights, etc. So maybe that makes some sense, as you pointed out. I keep hearing how power hungry industrial concerns are. Household usage is a blip compared to everything else.
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:54 AM   #42
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Yes, the 250 kWh/day/person comes from the total energy consumed in the USA, divided by the head count.

That includes all that is used to grow, produce, and transport food, goods, and provides services that we use. It is a lot more than what we use in our home, and burn in our personal cars.

Also, let's not forget fuel burned by airplanes and cruise ships. And all those fancy rockets.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:01 AM   #43
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This includes all heating, appliances, local transportation.
This works out to roughly 20kWh/person/day.
In Minnesota, this can be covered with roughly 40 panels (315W/panel).
In Minneapolis, the above array of 12.6 kW produces 33 kWh/day in December.

That falls way short in providing heating in addition to charging an EV.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:18 AM   #44
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Before I installed a DIY solar system to provide a portion of the energy that I used, my residential consumption was 16,800 kWh/year. No EV charging.

That works out to an average of 46 kWh/day. The highest daily consumption was 100 kWh/day in the hottest day of summer. The lowest was 24 kWh/day.

Lest you think I use too much energy, I agree but like to point out that my utility company says I use about 80% that of my neighbors.

Now, with the solar, it is reduced to about 60% of the previous consumption, or about 1/2 that of my neighbors.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:16 PM   #45
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Thanks. When your son knows more about the failure mode, if he can share it that will be great. For example, if it is the battery itself that fails, or a failure of the electronics that leads to the battery failure.

If the battery itself fails, that's not good. If it's the electronics, then the manufacturer could have done better by designing in redundant monitoring circuits, so that the system becomes "fail-safe". This means that the system will shut itself down if it detects its own failure.
Son said it was just one of his batteries. Apparently not his system.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:23 PM   #46
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In Minneapolis, the above array of 12.6 kW produces 33 kWh/day in December.

That falls way short in providing heating in addition to charging an EV.
My apologies, I took for granted that “on an annual basis” would be assumed.
I should have stated it explicitly.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:35 PM   #47
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Son said it was just one of his batteries. Apparently not his system.
We will need to wait to see if the manufacturer has to replace some hardware in addition to the battery when the system is serviced.

It is of course very possible that the battery itself failed, but the electronics can also be out-of-whack and overcharged/overdischarged the battery causing the failure.

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My apologies, I took for granted that “on an annual basis” would be assumed.
I should have stated it explicitly.
I knew you were talking about annual production. I wanted to point out that it takes a lot of storage to save the summer production for use in the winter.

I did not know you are living in Minnesota. The 14,000-kWh/year consumption is unbelievably low. I could not have imagined that. You must have an extremely energy-efficient home, if that also includes your EV charge. I cannot do that here in the SW, even without charging an EV.
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:24 PM   #48
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...
I knew you were talking about annual production. I wanted to point out that it takes a lot of storage to save the summer production for use in the winter.
Oh absolutely! If I were in a more temperate climate I’d probably shoot to be off grid. In Minnesota that isn’t feasible without a second or third source of power. I’ve seen some do it with solar, wind and a wood burning stove, but it is rare.

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I did not know you are living in Minnesota. The 14,000-kWh/year consumption is unbelievably low. I could not have imagined that. You must have an extremely energy-efficient home, if that also includes your EV charge. I cannot do that here in the SW, even without charging an EV.
Our house was designed to be net zero so yes, it is very efficient. If designed that way, it is not very difficult to do. It does take planning and a team that communicates.
Sadly, most builders aren’t interested in doing so.
More and more are though
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:49 PM   #49
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Our house was designed to be net zero so yes, it is very efficient. If designed that way, it is not very difficult to do. It does take planning and a team that communicates.
Sadly, most builders aren’t interested in doing so.
More and more are though
Agreed. We looked into it at our former city/state and again now that we’ve moved south 750 miles - there aren’t any contractors interested here either. Of course if there was demand, there would be contractors. Unless you live in large city in CA, AZ, TX, WA, OR and a few other exceptions - building net zero would take a lot of initiative and a hold harmless agreement from a contractor. Maybe some day...
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:11 PM   #50
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Could you find out more details about this battery catching on fire? What is the brand?



Well, I showed that the material cost for 50 kW worth of panels is $21K. The total cost will of course be higher, and that is still without batteries.

For example, a quick look shows me that a local installer is advertising a 10kW system for $25K before tax credits. And that's a rooftop system. If you need to build a structure for a large 50kW array which is 5x larger and will not fit on a typical roof, it is going to cost quite a bit more.

And remember that for a couple, you need 100 kW.



Eventually, when we run out of oil, we will have to use biofuel for planes. Air travel will be a lot more expensive when powered with vegetable oil.



I posted about this project in the other thread. It would work, but the problem is that it needs to sell its output at $0.135/kWh to be economically viable.

A lot of "stuff" works. It's just too expensive. Let them eat cake.


Not to mention that without fossil fuel it will be nearly impossible to produce enough biofuel for the jets. Agriculture is highly dependent on fossil fuel for machinery and the production of nitrogen fertilizer.
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Old 02-12-2020, 06:10 PM   #51
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Not to mention that without fossil fuel it will be nearly impossible to produce enough biofuel for the jets. Agriculture is highly dependent on fossil fuel for machinery and the production of nitrogen fertilizer.
Our great-grandchildren will read about our air travel and cruise trips, while living in caves.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:10 PM   #52
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gas savings

FWIW, there have been 2 times in my lifetime when gas consumption for the Washington DC metro area was reduced by 40% in weeks. When gas prices went past $4.00, and in the oil embargos in the 1970's.

I'm not a big fan of taxes but making things more precious tends to get people's attention. What's sad is how wasteful things are "normally".

Our solar panels are now on track to reduce our electric bills to $0. We're waiting for a best-fit battery, if we currently had to likely we'd need a TSLA model. [ Yes skeptics, we're grid tied so in winter we're only producing about 60% of what we need live. ]

This is just a drop in the bucket but when everyone does their part we could pretty easily get to a 50% savings across all power sources. It does take some systemic thinking which most folks are simply overwhelmed by, so likely it will take pain rather than planning from a social impacts point.
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:32 PM   #53
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Last year, we used a little over 31 kwh/day; our panels (installed in October) now are producing 40 kwh/day, which is more than enough to charge the Bolt, although February so far has been unusually clear.
December/January we were in deficit, averaging about 18-25 kwh/day produced. We should bank more than enough kwh to get us through next November-January without a charge, other than for the monthly connection. We are using gas for heat, although when the AC unit fails, I'll probably replace it with a heat pump.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:49 AM   #54
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I am happy to see solar generation costs drop and energy efficiency increase. I would like to be able to power my home from panels not connected to the power grid. I have considered putting panels on my roof, but plan to move.

On the other hand, comments like that from Musk is why I do not understand the global warming debate from either extreme perspective...there is never actually explanation how it works in the public square beyond some superficial discussion. The percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is less than 0.05%. Double, triple, quadruple that and it will create a blanket? Outer space is cold, what about the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

This past Monday, NASA launched an new probe to learn more about our sun. :-)
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...un-heat-shield
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:42 AM   #55
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Here is probably more than you ever wanted to know about Li-ion battery fires:

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ns_with_li_ion

Quote:
Quality lithium-ion batteries are safe if used as intended. However, a high number of heat and fire failures had been reported in consumer products that use non-certified batteries, and the hoverboard is an example. This may have been solved with the use of certified Li-ion on most current models. A UL official at a meeting in the Washington, D.C. area said that no new incident of overheating or fire had been reported since Li-ion in hoverboards was certified. Fires originating in the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 were due to a manufacturing defect that had been solved. The main-ship battery in the Boeing 787 Dreamliner also had defects that were resolved.

...

One of the most accident-prone batteries is Li-ion in an 18650 cell with an unfamiliar brand name. These batteries made available for vaping do not have the same quality and safety as a recognized brand name. Li-ion is safe if made by a reputable manufacturer, but there have been a number fires and injuries with cells that developed defects and caught fire while carrying in clothing and while traveling.

...


There are also safety concerns with the electric vehicle. However, statistics shows that EVs produce fewer fires compared to vehicles with the internal combustion engine (ICE) per billion kilometers driven. According to the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), over 400,000 ICE powered cars burned down in the 1980s. Today, 90 fires per one billion with ICE vehicles are considered normal; reports say that Tesla had only two fires per one billion driven kilometer.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:32 AM   #56
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Agreed. It's not a technical issue, there is plenty of space available and the technology already exists to make it work. The financial and social aspects are the biggest hurdles. Like you said, it won't be an overnight change, but solar is gaining ground as the prices come down.

Imagine if every parking lot had solar panels mounted above the parking spaces. That would be a lot of power generation.

Not to mention how wonderful parking in the shade would be.

Solar over parking lots seems to be the perfect solution. I don't understand why we're seeing cheap farmland wasted for solar farms when parking lots are already paid for and can benefit from the shade, not to mention the proximity advantage.

Who's "in charge" of figuring this stuff out? It looks like common sense from my POV.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:58 AM   #57
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Not to mention how wonderful parking in the shade would be.

Solar over parking lots seems to be the perfect solution. I don't understand why we're seeing cheap farmland wasted for solar farms when parking lots are already paid for and can benefit from the shade, not to mention the proximity advantage.

Who's "in charge" of figuring this stuff out? It looks like common sense from my POV.
Agreed. I would think the sun blocking would extend the life of an asphalt parking lot as well.

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Old 02-14-2020, 10:51 AM   #58
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Solar over parking lots seems to be the perfect solution. I don't understand why we're seeing cheap farmland wasted for solar farms when parking lots are already paid for and can benefit from the shade, not to mention the proximity advantage.

Who's "in charge" of figuring this stuff out? It looks like common sense from my POV.
Well, I guess the folks (private companies) who own the parking lots have reasons:

1. Initial cost of equipment which will be high,
2. Ongoing maintenance of panels, inverters, wiring, etc.,
3. Liability issues with property damage and individuals damaging the panel structures and possibly themselves,
4. Theft, malicious damage, etc.
5. Obtaining permits and approvals for construction and use,
6 Additional insurance costs.

There's probably more negative issues, so use your imagination.
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:23 AM   #59
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Our zoo has solar panels over its main parking lot. Produces 1.65 megawatts, something like 20% of the zoo's total needs.

array-558x265.jpg
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:25 AM   #60
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It would require a code change around here. The specifications for trees and greenery in parking lots are very severe. You have to have a lot of islands, a lot of trees, and a lot of shade.
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