Wealthy think they're middle class

[imoldernu]

An interesting read:
That’s Rich! Why So Many Wealthy Americans Think They’re Middle Class | Alternet

According to IRS data, 99 percent of American households make less than $388,000 a year, and 95 percent make less than $167,000 a year. The true middle in terms of income — that is, the cutoff to be in the top 50 percent of earners — is roughly $35,000 a year.

 

[NW-Bound]

It's because they all consider themselves to be peasants when compared to Bill Gates, Buffett and the like?

 

[Texas Proud]

Just my opinion..... but you cannot have it both ways...

I do not want to get political on this.... but some say that the $35K number is 'poor' in America...

So in the end, it is just how you want to look at things....

Me... middle class is income between about $50K to $100K... upper middle starts at $100K, but I do not know where it stops and 'rich' begins... maybe $200K

I always thought it funny that my old boss always talked about how he was so middle class since he drove an old truck etc. etc... but lived on a 244 acre ranch and had a couple of years where he earned close to $700K... now, last year was bad for him and I think he only made $150ish.. but he should be back to around $450K this year....

 

[imoldernu]

Looking for statistics and definitive numbers to attach meaning to the terms upper upper, lower upper, upper middle etc... become almost meaningless without a guideline for comparison. Thousands of analyses that are made to fit a perception, but by themselves only confuse.

This chart from 2011, is based on family income, and divided into quintiles.

Other measurements of wealth, based on Net Worth will naturally be different.
(edited to add net worth quintile chart)

 

[Major Tom]

I always thought it funny that my old boss always talked about how he was so middle class since he drove an old truck etc. etc... but lived on a 244 acre ranch and had a couple of years where he earned close to $700K... now, last year was bad for him and I think he only made $150ish.. but he should be back to around $450K this year....

I'm guessing it's because he wasn't thinking of class purely in economic terms, but as more of a socioeconomic indicator.

I think of myself as middle class, because my background is English middle class, and also because of my education, tastes and sensibilities etc. If I were to consider it in purely economic terms, I'd have to concede to belonging to a lower class, due to my ~$17K annual spend.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'm guessing it's because he wasn't thinking of class purely in economic terms, but as more of a socioeconomic indicator.

I think of myself as middle class, because my background is English middle class, and also because of my education, tastes and sensibilities etc. If I were to consider it in purely economic terms, I'd have to concede to belonging to a lower class, due to my ~$17K annual spend.

In economic terms he was NOT middle class...

In the way he acted... sure.... he worked a lot... he took care of the cows on his ranch (no help) and also ran a business with $5 mill revenue... he was not flashy at all... but also would not fall under any definition of middle class..


I do not think that they rank 'class' based on spend... even though that might be a better indicator...

 

[Texconsin]

Gee...ography

Geography makes a big difference. When I bought my new house in Katy, Texas for $165,800 back in 2007 and showed pictures at my family reunion, my Wisconsin brother said the house would cost $350,000 in Madison. My Illinois cousins said it would cost $500,000 in the Northwest Suburbs and my best friend in Kirkland, Washington later said somewhere between $800,000 and $900,000 there. (It's a Lennar with Texas construction, so I'd say they're all a little high - especially my friend in Washington, thanks to their new freedoms out there!)

Anyway, $35,000 down here in Houston goes a heck of a lot further than it would in DC and northern Virginia (the richest - not to get political - geographies in the U.S.), NYC or Seattle. I'm glad, however, that I don't (yet) need to know how to live on three-five-kay. Knock on wood. In my Lennar's case, that would be (a) hollow-core wood (door).

 

[pb4uski]

In terms of income and wealth we are definitely above middle class, but our mindset is more middle class than upper class so I'm afraid we would be part of the group the article is referring to.

 

[aim-high]

$150K gross annually for a household of 4 in DC Suburbs is a middle class lifestyle with very little savings.

 

[samclem]

Looking for statistics and definitive numbers to attach meaning to the terms upper upper, lower upper, upper middle etc... become almost meaningless without a guideline for comparison. Thousands of analyses that are made to fit a perception, but by themselves om;y confuse.

This chart from 2011, is based on family income, and divided into quintiles.

Other measurements of wealth, based on Net Worth will naturally be different.

But, just so it gets said, most people in the world don't live in the US. The worldwide median household income is a bit less than $10K per year. Everybody on this board is "middle class" or doing even better. By present-day worldwide standards, most people here are stinking rich. By historical standards, even more so.

 

[pb4uski]

True, but we don't have servants a la Downton Abbey so I find it hard to think of myself as stinking rich.

 

[MuirWannabe]

I find all the class definitions tedious and a waste of time. Seems just another way to promote jealousy, envy, division, and strife. For what purpose? You can already see it some in this thread.

As has been noted, this board exists with people who retire with small nest eggs, big nest eggs, large pensions, no pensions, big annual outlays, frugal beyond imagining outlays. And that's fine. To each his own.

As also has been noted on this board in the past. Anyone who has more than me is a dirty filthy rich person. Anyone who has less than me it's because I've worked so much harder for my lot. But I deserve more like those dirty filthy rich folk.

Muir


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[Amethyst]

Class /= money, income, or net worth.

Class = how you behave in the world.

Amethyst

 

[samclem]

True, but we don't have servants a la Downton Abbey so I find it hard to think of myself as stinking rich.

Well, despite the servants and wealth, when it was hot outside, they were hot inside that big beautiful house (no AC). And when they wanted to go more than 60 miles they needed to plan to stay overnight. And when they needed surgery--they often died. Want to communicate with a distant friend? Write a letter and wait for a few weeks to hear back.

I'll take today's middle-class (or even lower-middle class) over yesterday's stinking rich. I've got a much better, more fun, and longer life. Plus, I'd probably have >been< one of those servants, or much worse.

 

[photoguy]

I think there's a strong tendency for people to think of themselves as middle class regardless of their income/wealth because they will tend to hang around with people of similar means. Making 500k/year in Manhattan doesn't sound like upper class because everyone you know and work with is also making similar amounts.

 

[Senator]

I can say this... I beat the top quintiles and I do not feel upper income at all. I work a lot, and save a lot about 80%.

So I guess it's all relative. When you live middle income, you feel middle income, regardless of what you make or save.

 

[dallas27]

With a roof, health, food and my wife, i'm plenty fortunate. Money is a bonus after my real wealth.


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[Animorph]

I've always thought of middle class as being anyone who works (or had to work before retiring) to support their family, and successfully does so. No one has to help support them, they don't have some big asset that makes money for them early in life.


That is a very wide definition, leaving room for upper and lower middle class, but still with a working lifestyle.

 

[NW-Bound]

Well, despite the servants and wealth, when it was hot outside, they were hot inside that big beautiful house (no AC). And when they wanted to go more than 60 miles they needed to plan to stay overnight. And when they needed surgery--they often died. Want to communicate with a distant friend? Write a letter and wait for a few weeks to hear back.

I'll take today's middle-class (or even lower-middle class) over yesterday's stinking rich. I've got a much better, more fun, and longer life. Plus, I'd probably have >been< one of those servants, or much worse.

True. In absolute terms, a poor person with Medicaid and on welfare is doing much better than Louis XV of France did. However, people always look at others to compare and to complain.

The article has the following excerpt:

Of inequality, he [comedian Chris Rock]said: “People don’t even know [about it]. If poor people knew how rich rich people are, there would be riots in the streets."​

To borrow from that, do we think that if people in the 3rd world knew how rich the US really is, they would send us bombs? Oh, perhaps they have already tried. That did not mean that they had the right or it was the right thing to do.

 

[haha]

What I am unclear about is why some people here are upset that someone that they consider to be upper class considers himself middle class. Did god appoint you classifier in chief?


Ha

 

[karen1972]

Looking for statistics and definitive numbers to attach meaning to the terms upper upper, lower upper, upper middle etc... become almost meaningless without a guideline for comparison. Thousands of analyses that are made to fit a perception, but by themselves only confuse.

This chart from 2011, is based on family income, and divided into quintiles.

Other measurements of wealth, based on Net Worth will naturally be different.
(edited to add net worth quintile chart)

I found the net worth chart interesting since most people on here are targeting millions to retire yet according to the chart only the top 20% will ever have that.

As for people claiming to be middle class..I only take issue when people complain about taxes and free loaders..Ie many people work their ass off every day and will make pennies on the dollar...don't look down on them and don't pretend your being bled dry supporting them. Be happy they take the jobs that need to be done that you don't want to do.

I also worry because too many people want to keep up with the Jones. I think people have a skewed perception of what middle class is and it leads to our society taking on too much debt and not being happy with what they have.

And even being upper middle class doesn't mean I should just throw my money out buying things..I'm not willing to pay more than $40 for a bottle of wine when out..so when friends select the $70+ bottle and I know they couldn't come up with even $10k for a mortgage even though the bring in $150k+ a year.. I feel like the bad guy saying let's select something else. Middle class use to mean going out to dinner and now it seems to mean and spending $200...this is where the confusion on what is middle class becomes a problem.

 

[haha]

With a roof, health, food and my wife, i'm plenty fortunate. Money is a bonus after my real wealth.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

You may be special, but for many people, without money there goes roof, food, health and wife.

Ha

 

[haha]

I found the net worth chart interesting since most people on here are targeting millions to retire yet according to the chart only the top 20% will ever have that.

As for people claiming to be middle class..I only take issue when people complain about taxes and free loaders..Ie many people work their ass off every day and will make pennies on the dollar...don't look down on them and don't pretend your being bled dry supporting them. Be happy they take the jobs that need to be done that you don't want to do.

That is not usually what is meant by free -loaders. We also support many people who have never worked, never will work, and harbor no intentions of ever working.

Ha

 

[rodi]

The numbers are what they are.
If you're in the lowest quintile - you aren't middle class.
If you're in the highest quintile - you aren't middle class.

I would argue that being in 2nd lowest quintile would put you as lower middle class.
And being in the 2nd highest quintile would put you in the upper middle class.

I worked with engineers who made well over $100k, and many had wives who had similar income. Yet they wouldn't even concede to being upper middle class... insisting they were poor.

I live in a high COLA area. But even in a high COLA area - you don't have to live in the highest cost neighborhood or drive a 70k car. In fact, you can move to a lower COLA area.

I am grateful to have been upper middle class by household income (2 incomes was our choice.) I am grateful to have been able to save enough of that income to put myself in a high quintile for networth. My net worth makes me wealthy by objective standards - even if I don't have the trappings of wealth. I am thankful to have this. But I have enough family and friends who have less income/wealth to know that I'm nowhere near middle.

 

[karen1972]

The numbers are what they are.
If you're in the lowest quintile - you aren't middle class.
If you're in the highest quintile - you aren't middle class.

I would argue that being in 2nd lowest quintile would put you as lower middle class.
And being in the 2nd highest quintile would put you in the upper middle class.

I worked with engineers who made well over $100k, and many had wives who had similar income. Yet they wouldn't even concede to being upper middle class... insisting they were poor.

I live in a high COLA area. But even in a high COLA area - you don't have to live in the highest cost neighborhood or drive a 70k car. In fact, you can move to a lower COLA area.

I am grateful to have been upper middle class by household income (2 incomes was our choice.) I am grateful to have been able to save enough of that income to put myself in a high quintile for networth. My net worth makes me wealthy by objective standards - even if I don't have the trappings of wealth. I am thankful to have this. But I have enough family and friends who have less income/wealth to know that I'm nowhere near middle.

I think it's something with engineers..I'm an engineer too and its the same conversation...my "middle" class friends pulled down $400k this year but live in a ranch home so see themselves as middle class with $3-4M in the bank.

One of them got let go in December with $100k severance coming too them in Jan and they are worried about what if they can't find a job...umm they are in the very outskirts of Chicago where one of the still makes $200k and house paid off..Ie most people would have Fired but they act like they are worried how they will make ends meet.