Who Is Running This Choo-Choo Train?

[Eagle43]

Fred doesn't think much of Iraq war or of GWB? His reasoning is, as always, precise and eloquent.

Quote
The crumbling has begun, methinks.

Is this surprising? If I may risk repeating myself tiresomely, the way to defeat the American military is to avoiding giving it clear targets, keep the body bags flowing into Dover or Travis, and wait. It is that simple. The insurgents know this. They are doing it, and it is working. Five Marines today, three tomorrow, twelve GIs one week, nine another. On and on. So far we have killed 1700 of our soldiers, closing in on 2000. Sooner or later, even Middle America will notice.
....

What price nothing? A couple of thousand dead kids, countless cripples who will remain crippled when the current administration has been forgotten, a country wrecked, God knows how many dead Iraqis (I know, they don’t count), thousands of sisters and mothers remembering Bobby every Christmas and looking at his last year book from high school, a tremendous diminution in America’s influence and prestige as China rises, unforeseeable consequences in the Middle East. For what, Mr. Bush? For what?
Unquote

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

 

[dex]

Is this surprising? If I may risk repeating myself tiresomely, the way to defeat the American military is to avoiding giving it clear targets, keep the body bags flowing into Dover or Travis, and wait. It is that simple. The insurgents know this. They are doing it, and it is working. Five Marines today, three tomorrow, twelve GIs one week, nine another. On and on. So far we have killed 1700 of our soldiers, closing in on 2000. Sooner or later, even Middle America will notice.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

It is not the American military that gets defeated. It is the American people. They (we) lose the will to fight (this is not intended to be a coment of the value to start the war or continue being there). What you state is nothing that the insurgents do not know. 9/11 attack was based upon the same assumption. Since the Vietnam war and all actions up to and to some degree the first Gulf War (afraid of fighting in the streets of Bagdah) was perceived by the enemies of the USA that the US people are too soft and materilistic to make the sacrifices to fight a protracted action.

I think others in the USA (military and politicians) belive the USA will accept high casuality rates. This is why so much money is spent on long distance and high technology armaments.

So if what you say becomes reality then it does not portend peace. It would lead to more attacks by not only in the middle east but posability the likes of China, and N. Korea. A person may say - well they got what they wanted so why would they continue to attck? Two reasons - 1. Totalitarian regimes (and cults) need an outside enemy for their reason for being and legititamacy. 2. It is the culture and idea of the USA that is the real threat to the terrorists.

Yes the death toll in Iraq will reach 2,000. I think 2,500 US solders died on D day alone.

There is an article in the NY Sunday Times hinting that the US military is hinting that a draft may be needed. Now that will provide some interesting reading and will be very telling about the American public. If a draft were to start would there be all the exemptions there were in the past?

Every empire began its decline when it lost its will to fight. Since Egypt the lenght of time an empire existed has become shorter and shorter. Maybe the USA's reign will be the shortest. Was WWII the height?

Getting out of Iraq before a government is established may make us feel good in the short term but, it will sow the seeds of future attacks.

I don't know what will happen. I only know that the common good sense of the American public always seems to surprise me.

 

[laurence]

I think the problem is a clear mission. When you don't know who the bad guys are and a large contingent of the population doesn't want you in their country....the American people can stomach casualties for a cause they believe in. There has been very little to believe in the Iraq war.

I'm not ready to call then decline of empire, because this isn't an empire, and I hope it never becomes one. Previous empires declined and fell partly because they were "regimes" not democracies. Also, England made a relatively peaceful transition from Kingdom to democracy, and managed to avoid apocolyptic destruction/downfall for almost a thousand years now.

 

[TK]

Remember that the reason you can stand on your lily white soapbox is because of people prior to you and now ;are doing the hard work for liberty and freedom.

Quoting the one sided media and slanted websites does not account for the good we are doing. Are we perfect heck no. But you and I both have chose to live in this the best country in the world.

When was the last time people wanted to sneak into France? or Germany or Russia? Or immigrate to China?

God Bless our soldiers, law enforcement, and government officials.

I support your right to object but take the responsiblity to appreciate what we are and the responsibility that it comes with.

It is to easy to complain.... Do something to help the effort.

 

[TK]

Oh yeah and by the way ...

WE haven't killed any of our soldiers ...

The bad guys do the killing - duh !!!

 

[JPatrick]

Remember that the reason you can stand on your lily white soapbox is because of people prior to you and now ;are doing the hard work for liberty and freedom.

Quoting the one sided media and slanted websites does not account for the good we are doing.  Are we perfect heck no.  But you and I both have chose to live in this the best country in the world.

When was the last time people wanted to sneak into France? or Germany or Russia?  Or immigrate to China?

God Bless our soldiers, law enforcement, and government officials.

I support your right to object but take the responsiblity to appreciate what we are and the responsibility that it comes with.

It is to easy to complain.... Do something to help the effort.

Right on TK 8)

 

[73ss454]

TK
What about Tillman

 

[laurence]

If you stepped in front of a train TK, you would know what was going to happen. Bush sent troops there knowing they would die, he felt it was worth it. I thought playing with semantics was Clinton's game.

I'm chuckling at some one accusing Eagle43 of being a lib on his lily white soap box. Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, G. Gordon Liddy, yep, one sided news. But what did your comments do to further this debate?

France and Germany are dealing with immigration problems of their own, Cina has north koreans crossing the border all the time, and your really scraping bottom to use Russia for comparison. Next.

Absolutely, God bless them all, but where in the above posts did people attack our soldiers? I missed the accusation of "baby killer" somewhere. It's the genius of Karl Rove that somehow if you attack Bush - who never served in a combat zone- you somehow don't support the troops, or you hate America.

Some would say objecting to the death of our soldiers fighting in a country that didn't attack us, wasting billions, and all the while eroding the rights given us in our constitution rather than sitting by and doing nothing IS doing something. Saddam had an election where 100% of the population voted for him. Let's not go there.

 

[Nords]

Sooner or later, even Middle America will notice.

Uhm, everyone remembers that sailors & airmen have been dying in the Persian Gulf since the First Gulf War ended in 1991, right? It was called Operation SOUTHERN WATCH, with a few unexpected bonus deliveries like DESERT FOX.

As much as all the aviators appreciated the flight hours & combat pay, it was well past time to end this.

And now it's time to implement that exit strategy. Can someone post a link to the exit strategy and its timeline? We do have one, right?

As for the draft, speaking for all those currently on active duty, "no way." Two-year enlistments were a miserable failure and those people were volunteers. I can only imagine how the coerced conscripts would perform. Go ask guys like Dan Inouye, Randy Cunningham, John McCain, & John Kerry (I'm sure I missed a few due to my lack of knowledge) how they feel about a draft.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Every empire began its decline when it lost its will to fight.

Actually every empire declined when the people became fat and the huns attacked. The huns dont play by the prescribed rules of engagement. The huns sacking rome, the minute men shooting the brits from behind trees instead of marching in lines, terrorists picking off who they want from a structured army.

I'm not ready to call then decline of empire, because this isn't an empire, and I hope it never becomes one.

We're an imperial republic. We're a republic, not a democracy by specific definition. Look it up. A 'true democracy' is almost impossible to make work in a large society, our forefathers knew that, and its reflected both in their writings and in how our country is structured. Imperial because we have overtly and covertly imposed our will on many countries and cultures over a long period of time, creating ill will in the process.

We havent transitioned from imperial republic to empire either because we still want to look like the good guys and the public wouldnt allow it, or because we're only doing the least we can do to maintain our quality of life and maintain the stability of the world...former or latter depending on your perspective.

But the fact remains that we were an anti-communist empire for some time, and that has transitioned to an oil control empire. And we're fat. And the huns are coming.

 

[HFWR]

I believe that a draft should only be implemented if there is a declaration of war.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

And now it's time to implement that exit strategy. Can someone post a link to the exit strategy and its timeline? We do have one, right?

Tricky, tricky. You see, the reason why we didnt take out saddam in the first gulf war is that we needed him. He was not a muslim nutcase and stomped out any insurgency or religious fiddle faddle in his country, and he sat square between Iran (and other muslim extremists), turkey, and our friends saudi arabia and israel. We needed him there but we needed to keep him on a short leash and weak enough to not be aggressive, hence the periodic golf-course creation via bombers. (if nobody gets that, golf courses are flat open areas with lots of little holes in them).

When he got so weak he realized his neighbors were getting restless, he made noises about chemical, biological and nuclear weapons just to keep them guessing and at arms length. We realized he wasnt going to be able to hang in there a lot longer, any attempts to softly create a new regime wouldnt work because the muslims would grab power and turn iran/iraq into a composite muslim extremist state parked right on top of and next to the majority of the worlds oil.

So we used saddams empty threats as a reason to park 150,000 soldiers there until we can remake the government back into a reasonable buffer. That'll take 5-10 years. Thats our exit strategy: when a stable government with a stable military thats friendly to the US, the saudis and the israelis is able to stand alone, we'll pull out. But probably keep several bases in place just to be sure.

And that 2000 will turn into 30-40,000 between now and then, including the couple of minor civil wars we'll call insurgency activity and maybe even a little showdown with iran.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I believe that a draft should only be implemented if there is a declaration of war.

Funny part is, if you read the constitution we're not even supposed to HAVE a standing army, but to create one in time of need to address threats to our national security, then disband it again. The founding fathers wanted no part of the US maintaining a large standing army, both due to cost and the desire to use what you have.

 

[Nords]

We havent transitioned from imperial republic to empire either because we still want to look like the good guys and the public wouldnt allow it...

... of course they wouldn't. They all saw what happened to Darth Vader when his republic turned into an empire!

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yeah, but the good news is they wouldnt have to roshambo for who wears the big black helmet...cheney would volunteer in a heartbeat. Plus he could use that breathing apparatus...

 

[HFWR]

Funny part is, if you read the constitution we're not even supposed to HAVE a standing army, but to create one in time of need to address threats to our national security, then disband it again.  The founding fathers wanted no part of the US maintaining a large standing army, both due to cost and the desire to use what you have.

I think this approach is somewhat impractical in the modern world; however, as Eisenhower warned, the military-industrial complex is self-replicating and self-serving. And, many of the arms we've spread throughout the world, for one expedient reason or another, have eventually been used against us...

 

[laurence]

TH, ya, ya, I know we're actually a republic, I was saving time and using the more general term. Thank God we aren't a true democracy. As it is, all this ballot initiative stuff in CA is getting way out of hand!

So from what I'm reading, when can I expect those 14 senators to corner Bush and stab him in dramatic fashion, the last being McCain with Bush saying, "eh tu, John?"?

I just get a little heated when people start implying any critisizm of the current administration means you hate America and should be put in an internment camp. Especially since most of these same people spent 8 years trying to tear down the last administration.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yep...nothing like getting "dixie chicked".

You complain about the bushies and you're a lib and a traitor scumbag.

Good job by the administration of spinning dissenters into that hole full of sharp sticks. Keeps most peoples mouths shut.

The biggest problem I have is the guys on video tape saying "blah blah blah", then another clip of them a year later saying "I *never* said 'blah blah blah". Its insulting to my intelligence.

 

[greg]

The Dark Empire: So the Chinese and Japanese and many others buy our bonds so that we can continue our deficit spending, materialistic ways. Some people call this a symbiotic or parasitic relationship. Some call these foreigners foolish--then laugh.

I see it as tribute money, much like the Romans received their grain, metals, and slaves from the around the empire. On the surface, it looks like they are just taking their excess profits from the sale of goods to the US and then receiving promissory notes from us. But they know that the dollars they receive back will be worth less when cashed it and exchanged back into their own currency. Just ask John Snow, our Sec. of Treasury. Why would they do this, knowingly buy bonds that are going down in value someday.

Of course, there are lots of rationales and reasons put forth on how and why this works for everybody. And they all seem to make at least some sense. But at the core, we are receiving something (the goods) for almost nothing. We even push the bond principle out onto our children.

The US printing presses rule the economic world. All tribute flows to our government. I believe the Euro is slowly dieing. Long live the dollar!

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

One explanation...we have a well made military (shhh nords, most people dont know and know how to fight wars quite well. Buy our country, own our military?

 

[Nords]

One explanation...we have a well made military (shhh nords, most people dont know  and know how to fight wars quite well.  Buy our country, own our military?

Gee, could we really be that, er, mercenary?

One of the primary missions of the U.S. Army Rangers is to train the security forces of other nations. Your tax dollars at work, folks...

 

[JB]

Remember that the reason you can stand on your lily white soapbox is because of people prior to you and now ;are doing the hard work for liberty and freedom.

Quoting the one sided media and slanted websites does not account for the good we are doing. Are we perfect heck no. But you and I both have chose to live in this the best country in the world.

When was the last time people wanted to sneak into France? or Germany or Russia? Or immigrate to China?

God Bless our soldiers, law enforcement, and government officials.

I support your right to object but take the responsiblity to appreciate what we are and the responsibility that it comes with.

It is to easy to complain.... Do something to help the effort.

You are watching way to much Fox news.

People come to the US for a better job (economic opportunity). Freedom and democracy has little to do with it. For example, take Puerto Rico, a US territory with no national voting rights. They also don't pay taxes and don't seem to mind the 'trade-off'.

According to my National Geographic World Atlas, France has a higher percentage of immigrants than the US (so does Austrailia). They go there for the same reasons that they come here -- a better job.

 

[JB]

Re empire decline

I'm currently reading Jarrod Diamond's "Collapse -- How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed".

His thesis is that societies fail for one or more of the following reasons:
- damage their environment beyond repair
- natural climate change
- hostile neighbors
- reduced support from friendly neighbors (trading partners)
- how their political and social institutions and respond to these problems. Their cultural values.

 

[TK]

Some would say objecting to the death of our soldiers fighting in a country that didn't attack us, wasting billions, and all the while eroding the rights given us in our constitution rather than sitting by and doing nothing IS doing something. Saddam had an election where 100% of the population voted for him.

Laurence - difference between me and you - I run the train...
not stand in front of it. Comparisons are comparisons - you don't like the Russia comparison yet use North Koreans going into China as an argument point? ROTFLMAO

I always admire the Liberal bent - Know nothing - and have nothing at risk... Thank God there are people willing to take a stand to defend your right to pontificate.

Maybe as I get older I will know As much as you do.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

9/11 attack was based upon the same assumption. Since the Vietnam war and all actions up to and to some degree the first Gulf War (afraid of fighting in the streets of Bagdah) was perceived by the enemies of the USA that the US people are too soft and materilistic to make the sacrifices to fight a protracted action.

Since the Vietnam war and all actions up to the current war excluding only Afghanistan we aren't trying to defeat another nation but invading and trying to divide or shape it to our liking while keeping the locals friendly.

In WWII we conquered the military and peoples of Germany and Japan. In Iraq we're trying to make the locals feel good, but among them are our enemy.

It's been a long time since I heard anyone complain about Afghanistan, and they were a small minority. The lack of enthusiasm is because the public doesn't know what why we're in Iraq but know that Osama isn't there.

Knocking over the Taliban destabilized Afghanistan, but it's been a long time since I heard from anyone who thinks it wasn't necessary and proper. Knocking out Saddam destabilized Iraq--while we still have a destabilized Afghanistan and Osama hunt, by the way--and there was a lot of uncertainty from the start what this accomplishes for us.

I think others in the USA (military and politicians) belive the USA will accept high casuality rates. This is why so much money is spent on long distance and high technology armaments.

In Afghanistan and other countries that threaten us, yes. In *selected* countries that don't get along with us but don't pose an immenent threat, no. The reasons given for going into Iraq could've been applied to probably 50 other countries.

So if what you say becomes reality then it does not portend peace. It would lead to more attacks by not only in the middle east but posability the likes of China, and N. Korea.

China or N. Korea would get happily nuked if they attacked us. Don't be silly. And China wouldn't attack us because it's currently bootstrapping itself into the modern world with our money. Afghanistan showed this country's thirst for blood. Iraq shows our distate for dying to reform other states. I see what you mean that leaving Iraq would show weakness, but the administration and military should've known this would happen before we went in. That's where the mistakes were made, and now we're stuck with two lose-lose scenarios: stay, die and continue to lose public support or leave and lose face in front of the terrorists.

I think Afghanistan was a very clear sign that we're not tolerating terrorism anymore. Leaving Iraq will fuzz that up a bit, but the mistake was going in, not getting out.

2. It is the culture and idea of the USA that is the real threat to the terrorists.

I hear that a l lot. I think that's total BS. I bought that for fighting communism, but not our current terrorist enemies. Oppressive governments like Saudi Arabia use our money and our weapons to continue their people's oppression while shifting blame for the plight to the U.S.. It's complex, but I think the terrorists target us because they think it will improve that group's power back in the middle east. I doubt they really care what we do over here with our culture. We sure don't care what other nations do as long as they don't hurt us or cost us too much money.

Yes the death toll in Iraq will reach 2,000. I think 2,500 US solders died on D day alone.

What % of the U.S. opposed that action? And by the way, Saddam is no Hitler.

Getting out of Iraq before a government is established may make us feel good in the short term but, it will sow the seeds of future attacks.

I can't argue with the substance of that statement, but again I say the error was made going in. After Vietnam, Korea and Gulf I they should've known the public wouldn't stand for a long steady flow of U.S. blood in the Gulf.


I've seen the word liberal thrown around, but interestingly the people being called this aren't SG, Cut-Throat and I (until I posted here). I guess there's lots more liberals now. Scary, huh?