Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-02-2021, 07:55 PM   #181
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjpliny View Post
Yep. Those 3600 RPM air cooled units are loud and aren't built to run for long periods. The liquid cooled 1800 RPM units will most likely outlast them in longevity with proper maintenance by at least a factor of two, and increase reliability for extended outages as well. I look at generators from an insurance perspective, not an investment perspective...this is not an area I would want to cheap out in.

If you're out of power for 2+ weeks and your air cooled unit craps out after a few days due to "overuse" with no available technicians...was it worth saving the initial money while your family and pipes freeze and your food goes bad? Each person would need to make this decision based on their budget and risk tolerance.]
But it's not like you have to leave an air cooled unit running non-stop for days at a time. Run it for an hour or two to let the fridge and freezer run a couple cycles and so the HW tank can heat up, then turn it off for a while. Food will be perfectly fine in a fridge or freezer that is 1 hour on, 3 hours off or 2 hours on, 4 hours off.

And of course, if you're worried about pipes freezing then the fridge and freezer will require even less power to maintain temperature. If it's cold enough to freeze pipes then it's cold enough to keep food from spoiling.
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-02-2021, 08:33 PM   #182
Full time employment: Posting here.
RetiredAt55.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
And of course, if you're worried about pipes freezing then the fridge and freezer will require even less power to maintain temperature. If it's cold enough to freeze pipes then it's cold enough to keep food from spoiling.
Just have some Igloo type coolers on hand, pack them up, and put them outside. I always manually defrost our chest freezer in the wintertime.

Sucks not having a frost free freezer, but on the other hand it uses less watts so it's more inverter friendly I guess.
RetiredAt55.5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 08:56 PM   #183
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyking1 View Post
..........The roof air units on RV's are like that too, they clobber the heck out of gensets at startup.......
The EasyStart I linked above makes a huge difference in the starting amps for air conditioning units. It is spendy at $300, but allows for a smaller generator which is very nice, if even just from a lifting weight perspective.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 09:15 PM   #184
Full time employment: Posting here.
RetiredAt55.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 766
BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.
RetiredAt55.5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2021, 10:07 PM   #185
Moderator
Jerry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,101
Regarding the test run and the maintenance.

I run my generator manually. I don’t have it on automatic. I’ve found that the majority of electrical outages are very short and I’ll give it about a half hour before I’ll start it up. Maybe more if it’s a nice day. If I went out of town I would consider switching it over to automatic. Anyway, with it on manual, I only run it once a month (first day of the month). I run it for about 20 minutes. There is really no reason to run it every week. Once a month keeps the battery charged. Also, buy manually starting it, I also do a visual inspection and check the oil and the coolant levels.

As for maintenance, there’s no way a handy person can’t save money on maintenance. I use synthetic oil. I change it once a year. I’ve changed the coolant once in the 5 years I’ve lived here and I think about every 2 or 3 years is more than sufficient. Obviously, an air cooled won’t even have coolant. Then there’s an oil filter and an air filter. Oil filter gets changed with the oil and the air filter has been change once. I’m thinking that will be on the same schedule as the coolest, just because. I think both the coolant and the air filter could go 5 years with no problem. Eventually you may have to change out spark plugs. Not sure when I’ll do that. Of course if I had a major event or a particularly bad year, I may do the oil sooner. Overall usage certainly matters.

The bottom line is that these are either small car engines or large lawn mower like engines. There’s no reason a handy person can’t maintain them and maybe even do some basic repairs if needed. For example, I had to put a new battery in mine the year after I bought the house. $300 for annual maintenance is more than half labor. Probably $200 labor and $100 for parts.

Oh, parts. The Generac oil filter is way more expensive than the NAPA Gold oil filter that cross references. Don’t automatically buy the generator branded part.
__________________
Every day when I open my eyes now it feels like a Saturday - David Gray
Jerry1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 05:37 AM   #186
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredAt55.5 View Post
BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.
Like I said, generators are for convenience for me so cost is a personal preference. Having said, I choose a 10KW generator simply because of the cost concerns.



I have alternate means of heating (wood burning fireplace and onsite propane) but generator can also mean safety to some people e.g. some in Texas had low natural gas pressure AND no electricity, or people who solely rely on electricity for heating, etc. At the end of the day, everyone has to see what energy sources they have and which can go out of service AT THE SAME TIME when disaster strikes. If answer is all energy sources then generator is required for safety. Safety is priceless in my book.
pjigar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 06:01 AM   #187
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
folivier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,986
Having lived my entire life in the hurricane belt I've only had a generator once. It was a PTO generator that I attached to my tractor and used that twice for a week or 2 after major storms. I also worked mostly in the natural gas pipeline industry and would see the pressure on our pipelines when the offshore wells would shut down whenever a hurricane would enter the gulf. Also during winter storms we would be fighting to keep our measurement and distribution facilities from freezing up. Wherever there is a restriction in a pipeline you have a pressure drop and that is where a shutdown could occur.
That said if I would ever buy a whole house automatic generator I would also want a controller that in addition to automatically starting anytime the power goes out it would have a timer so that it does not run continuously but runs for a couple hours then shuts off, and repeats that cycle until power is restored. This would keep refrigerators, freezers, heaters or air conditioners running enough to prevent problems. The value in this is if you're away traveling or have evacuated there is no need for your generator to run continuously. But no company offers these or is interested in developing these.
So in the event of a hurricane my motorhome with its 10kw generator is our savior.
__________________
You do not have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
folivier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 06:12 AM   #188
Moderator
Jerry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by folivier View Post
I would ever buy a whole house automatic generator I would also want a controller that in addition to automatically starting anytime the power goes out it would have a timer so that it does not run continuously but runs for a couple hours then shuts off, and repeats that cycle until power is restored.
I do something like that but it’s manual, so not able to be done if you’re not home. I shut down the generator at night when I go to sleep. I may revisit that policy if I lost electricity in the middle of winter. Usually around here, electricity goes out due to storms with high winds reeking havoc on the grid.
__________________
Every day when I open my eyes now it feels like a Saturday - David Gray
Jerry1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 07:20 AM   #189
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredAt55.5 View Post
BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.



So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.

I just started using a service contractor last year and a 1 year contract is $250. in Eastern Pennsylvania. Before that I did all the maintenance and repairs. I had the controller go bad about 3 years ago and replaced it myself, 4 screws and a couple of connectors were all that held it in place. I replace the battery every 3 years.
The test run is whatever you set your generator to run. Ours, which is an older Generac whole house generator, you can set the self-test for the day & time plus weekly, biweekly, monthly for 10 to 20 minutes. It's testing the generator to make sure that everything is in running order. On the display I can see any alerts the system posts plus check the battery voltage and other settings. I look at the display once a week when I'm taking out the trash.
splitwdw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 10:20 AM   #190
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 4,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
But it's not like you have to leave an air cooled unit running non-stop for days at a time. Run it for an hour or two to let the fridge and freezer run a couple cycles and so the HW tank can heat up, then turn it off for a while. Food will be perfectly fine in a fridge or freezer that is 1 hour on, 3 hours off or 2 hours on, 4 hours off.

And of course, if you're worried about pipes freezing then the fridge and freezer will require even less power to maintain temperature. If it's cold enough to freeze pipes then it's cold enough to keep food from spoiling.
A large chest freezer needs even less generator runtime, according to one outdoor author I've read who lived off-grid in the 1970s.

He would run his diesel generator only one hour daily in the morning for all the electric needs of the day.

Which included pumping water from the well to the cistern & keeping a couple of large chest freezers (no fridge, IIRC) running at proper temperature.
ncbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 11:14 AM   #191
Moderator
sengsational's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,656
It looks like there are solutions separated by an order of magnitude: $200 (inverter and extension cords), $2,000 (roll-out generator and transfer switch) or $20,000 (full-blown "call the man" and don't even know or care if the power goes out). Obviously the pricing is more continuous than that, but generally speaking, that's kind of what I see.

I've been in this location 25 years and I only remember one time when we lost power in the winter and the house got cold. We lit the (very inefficient) natural gas fireplace and hung out in the living room. Cooked outdoors with propane. Still had hot showers (gas water heater). If I could have added just the gas furnace and refrigerator, I would have been perfectly happy to continue that long-term (weeks). That event lasted maybe 24 or 36 hours.

All that said, I really think it would be fun to go into a "power it all" whole house solution, but just can't justify it. Certainly more convenient, it would make the neighbors envious (hehehe), would be a cool project to "blow the dough", but given the low likelihood of use as well as being 2 orders of magnitude more than the minimum effective solution, the cheapskate in me just can't hang with it.

Then the intermediate solution (generator) just makes it a little less like camping over the most basic solution. An upgrade from extension cords to a transfer switch would mean a rather messy install, in my case (the panel is in a finished room). And I'd need to store the generator somewhere. Since my under house storage and shed both have an occasional condensation problem, I'd need to address that, which would add to project. Although it would be nice to not have to run one device at a time, it's a log increase in price over the most basic solution.
sengsational is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 11:40 AM   #192
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: the prairies
Posts: 5,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
A large chest freezer needs even less generator runtime, according to one outdoor author I've read who lived off-grid in the 1970s.

He would run his diesel generator only one hour daily in the morning for all the electric needs of the day.

Which included pumping water from the well to the cistern & keeping a couple of large chest freezers (no fridge, IIRC) running at proper temperature.
That's bit more extreme than I'd like but the basic idea is there. Our house, for example is in an extreme cold climate...but it's also very well insulated. In an extended power failure (we've never had one in my entire life) on the coldest time of the year I could get by with generating power 1 hour every 4-6 hours, mostly to run the furnace.
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 07:31 PM   #193
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chicago West Burbs
Posts: 2,998
From what I read, car alternators will put out somewhere between 25% and maybe 50% of their rated capability at idle. Assuming a car has a 100A alternator, At 25-50Amps that is only 375-750 watts. Figure a loss of 10% in an inverter gets somewhere around 350-700 watts of available AC power. Don't be surprised if a car cannot supply more than that, no matter what the inverter is rated at. One would have to run faster than idle in order to get the full 1000W. Even then, the inverter may not support the startup current requirement of a motor driven device. Be sure you can return the inverter if it doesn't do what you desire.
CRLLS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 08:33 PM   #194
Full time employment: Posting here.
RetiredAt55.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRLLS View Post
From what I read, car alternators will put out somewhere between 25% and maybe 50% of their rated capability at idle. Assuming a car has a 100A alternator, At 25-50Amps that is only 375-750 watts. Figure a loss of 10% in an inverter gets somewhere around 350-700 watts of available AC power. Don't be surprised if a car cannot supply more than that, no matter what the inverter is rated at. One would have to run faster than idle in order to get the full 1000W. Even then, the inverter may not support the startup current requirement of a motor driven device. Be sure you can return the inverter if it doesn't do what you desire.
I would agree that it would be a very bad idea to power a device that ran continuously at 700 watts or more, for a period of time (like a space heater running at 750 watts), since the alternator is going to be madly running continuously trying to charge the battery and that'll likely shorten the alternator's life (perhaps considerably).
RetiredAt55.5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2021, 08:43 PM   #195
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
You do not want to overload the alternator, and burn it out.

I happened to see some reports about alternators in boats and RVs getting burned up when the owners use stock alternators to charge lithium batteries. What happened was that a lithium battery can soak up a huge amount of current compared to lead-acid batteries, causing alternator failures.

A common alternator failure in the above scenario is overheating. It so happens that at low speeds, the alternator fan does not generate enough airflow to cool itself.

Here, we are talking about using the stock lead-acid battery, and not a lithium battery. However, the load presented to an alternator by an inverter can be really bad, particularly with one rated at 2 kW. Such an inverter can draw more than 150A, a current far exceeds what most alternators can put out. If the set up is used to run just a fridge and some electronics drawing 500W or less, one can get away with it. Resist attempt to plug in a space heater, or a large motor.

Following is a video by Victron Energy, a premier maker of inverters for use in boats and RVs, which talks about overheating an alternator running at low speeds.

__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)

"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 08:09 AM   #196
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredAt55.5 View Post
BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.

The question is do I want to have more money to leave to my heirs or do I want to be comfortable during power outages...


My brother was without electricity for over 3 days... it was so cold in his apartment (so no generator for him) that he just opened his fridge to keep his food cold...


Plus, of the 6 kids of my parents, 4 had outages 3 days for more (3 in Texas 1 in Oregon)... the grid is probably going to be worse going forward no matter what assurances are given considering the load that will be placed on it.... especially when everybody has to plug in their car...


It is always a trade-off when buying anything... do the same math for a new car etc. etc...
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 08:31 AM   #197
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Big_Hitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Les Bois
Posts: 5,761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post

My brother was without electricity for over 3 days... it was so cold in his apartment (so no generator for him) that he just opened his fridge to keep his food cold...

https://bestclassicbands.com/gene-ta...sters-2-21-21/

Gene died of hypothermia, seriously, hypothermia, in Austin? When I moved from the gulf coast I made sure my parents had a residential standby generator installed for their safety and well being. My Mom never ran out of heat or electricity last month, plus she uses a nebulizer.

I can't believe people are getting worksheets out for this.
__________________
You can't be a retirement plan actuary without a retirement plan, otherwise you lose all credibility...
Big_Hitter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 08:49 AM   #198
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Hitter View Post
https://bestclassicbands.com/gene-ta...sters-2-21-21/

Gene died of hypothermia, seriously, hypothermia, in Austin? When I moved from the gulf coast I made sure my parents had a residential standby generator installed for their safety and well being. My Mom never ran out of heat or electricity last month, plus she uses a nebulizer.

I can't believe people are getting worksheets out for this.
I agree. My longer term goal after retiring and moving to a lower cost area is to have at least a few acres of land and a home with a decent sized solar roof array, large battery backup, and also a backup generator just in case power is out for extended periods and the solar can't keep up due to poor weather. Losing power for extended periods isn't fun. Our electrical grid is also prone to issues as it ages and more population demand is added to it.
__________________
To endure the unbridled micromanagement of one's time on this earth, whether paid or unpaid, is to offer up one's soul to a paradigm of increasing tyranny, exploitation and indignity.
kjpliny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 10:39 AM   #199
Full time employment: Posting here.
RetiredAt55.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 766
As has been mentioned several times in this thread, there are other options besides doing nothing and spending $10-$20 thousand on a whole house generator.

As my local weather forecaster mused when her power went out, "I could spend a LOT of nights at the Hilton for the cost of a whole house generator". Although a little tongue in check, there's some logic there too (assuming the outage is localized and hotels are available).

The events in Texas were unfortunate and tragic. Ironically, having a natural gas generator wouldn't have fared well given the gas problems. Gasoline portable generators would've faired better IF you had stockpiled a lot of gasoline ahead of time. Having a large propane tank and system was probably the best combination this time.

It's hard to anticipate all calamities in life. In the event of a flood, a portable generator can be easily moved to higher ground ahead of time. Like in the back of the used pickup truck you bought instead of a $12k generator.
RetiredAt55.5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2021, 10:40 AM   #200
Moderator
Jerry1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,101
In my surfing today, I came across this story. The guy converts a large portable gasoline generator to a natural gas whole house generator. Says he did it for around $2,500.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/diy...action-of-cost

I like how he put it in a box and included a ventilation/cooling fan.
__________________
Every day when I open my eyes now it feels like a Saturday - David Gray
Jerry1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Or Used/Craigslist Small Generator yakers Other topics 6 05-20-2009 03:33 PM
Prius Backup Generator Andy R Other topics 27 12-30-2008 09:34 PM
Intermittent Generator Light TromboneAl Other topics 7 07-20-2007 01:01 PM
Generator: To buy or not to buy.... wabmester Other topics 20 12-27-2006 03:26 PM
Project excuse generator dory36 Other topics 11 04-07-2006 08:02 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:53 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.