Whole house generator

[RetiredAt55.5]

It shows as Modified Sine Wave inverter. The furnace motor and blower will run a bit noisy and warmer than normal. In some instances it can create problems.

That video discusses 2 issues:

(1) Creating a suicide cord and energizing multiple house circuits to the inverter. I'd never entertain that, since anything plugged into the now energized circuits could cycle on at the same time (furnace, fridge, freezer, motion sensor lights, AC) or someone could forget the power is off and try the microwave or coffee maker, plus anything that was already on when the power went off. This is almost guaranteed to seriously overload the inverter at some point and maybe blowing the inverter fuses. I'd only use a beefy extension cord hooked up directly to the inverter and then to the one or two things I want to run.

(2) Using a modified sine wave inverter (versus a pure sine wave). There is a risk there, though the video person says it's more a risk for longer term usage. Lots of opinions about this on the internet. I haven't found a definitive source, except the repeated mentioning about it being less efficient and running warmer (the device and/or the inverter). If I had a new, fancy fridge for example, with lots of bells and whistles (expensive to fix or replace), that would make me worry more. You definitely have to spend more to get the same capacity in a pure sine wave inverter.

 

[sengsational]

It shows as Modified Sine Wave inverter. The furnace motor and blower will run a bit noisy and warmer than normal. In some instances it can create problems.

I wasn't planning on connecting it to house wiring, rather I was going to add an outlet and "un-hard-wire" my furnace so that I could unplug it from the house wiring plug it into a beefy extension cord running from the inverter.

But the video was interesting. Lots of details I didn't know. It might be worth buying a pure sine wave version, just for piece of mind.

 

[NW-Bound]

... It might be worth buying a pure sine wave version, just for piece of mind.

+1

I have used only pure sinewave inverters. There is no telling in advance what devices or appliances may work or not with a modified sinewave inverter. The price difference is small enough nowadays that the saving is no reason to take the risk.

PS. Pure resistance heating devices such as portable space heaters, hair blowers, electric kettles, simple coffee percolators, etc..., will not know the difference between the two types of inverters. As soon as you have some electronics in there, there is a potential problem.

Induction motors generally can work with modified-sinewave inverters, but will run hotter from what I have read.

 

[travelover]

That Honda is the gold standard in small inverter generators, with a price to match.

I wanted something that could power the RV AC and other stuff as well, so I ended up buying a Wen 3800 surge/3400 continuous inverter generator when it went on sale in December. It really came through for us during the Feb Freeze and we were really happy with how quietly it runs.

I picked up the Honda used with literally a couple of hours on it, but still paid $750. From the EasyStart website, I saw that in their testing, the Honda delivered the rated wattage more reliably than knock off brands. I've heard good things about the Wen, especially given its reasonable price. Champion also seems to make good inverter generators for a decent price and have several models that come as dual fuel, including a 2000 watt suitcase inverter type.

 

[skyking1]

No idea what I'm talking about, but sometimes a fridge (or anything with a motor) needs a LOT of juice to get started. Be certain to read the specs on fridge or other items with a motor to be certain your generator can handle it. YMMV

I run both a very large 3 door fridge and a 15 cu ft chest freezer on my Honda EU2000i.
The eco mode on the Honda reduces the RPM's to just what is needed. The generator will barely come up off the lowest RPM for one of the appliance's starting loads. It will go a little higher but nothing excessive if both the compressors start at the same time, then it drops down to nearly the lowest RPM.
Go back a few years. I had an EU1000i, that would Rev up more, but would still carry both appliances fine. That's less than half the generator, with regard to starting loads.
The starting loads on modern appliances are not bad.
Old school heat pumps and air conditioners are the heaviest hitters, they do not have inverters to ramp up the motor. They have a spec called locked rotor amps, and that is what your genset will momentarily see. That startup is assisted by the start capacitor on those large motors.
The roof air units on RV's are like that too, they clobber the heck out of gensets at startup.
The spit mini heat pumps are inverter technology, they start out slowly with variable RPM and draw very little at startup and overall.

 

[Music Lover]

Yep. Those 3600 RPM air cooled units are loud and aren't built to run for long periods. The liquid cooled 1800 RPM units will most likely outlast them in longevity with proper maintenance by at least a factor of two, and increase reliability for extended outages as well. I look at generators from an insurance perspective, not an investment perspective...this is not an area I would want to cheap out in.

If you're out of power for 2+ weeks and your air cooled unit craps out after a few days due to "overuse" with no available technicians...was it worth saving the initial money while your family and pipes freeze and your food goes bad? Each person would need to make this decision based on their budget and risk tolerance.]

But it's not like you have to leave an air cooled unit running non-stop for days at a time. Run it for an hour or two to let the fridge and freezer run a couple cycles and so the HW tank can heat up, then turn it off for a while. Food will be perfectly fine in a fridge or freezer that is 1 hour on, 3 hours off or 2 hours on, 4 hours off.

And of course, if you're worried about pipes freezing then the fridge and freezer will require even less power to maintain temperature. If it's cold enough to freeze pipes then it's cold enough to keep food from spoiling.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

And of course, if you're worried about pipes freezing then the fridge and freezer will require even less power to maintain temperature. If it's cold enough to freeze pipes then it's cold enough to keep food from spoiling.

Just have some Igloo type coolers on hand, pack them up, and put them outside. I always manually defrost our chest freezer in the wintertime.

Sucks not having a frost free freezer, but on the other hand it uses less watts so it's more inverter friendly I guess.

 

[travelover]

..........The roof air units on RV's are like that too, they clobber the heck out of gensets at startup.......

The EasyStart I linked above makes a huge difference in the starting amps for air conditioning units. It is spendy at $300, but allows for a smaller generator which is very nice, if even just from a lifting weight perspective.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.

 

[Jerry1]

Regarding the test run and the maintenance.

I run my generator manually. I don’t have it on automatic. I’ve found that the majority of electrical outages are very short and I’ll give it about a half hour before I’ll start it up. Maybe more if it’s a nice day. If I went out of town I would consider switching it over to automatic. Anyway, with it on manual, I only run it once a month (first day of the month). I run it for about 20 minutes. There is really no reason to run it every week. Once a month keeps the battery charged. Also, buy manually starting it, I also do a visual inspection and check the oil and the coolant levels.

As for maintenance, there’s no way a handy person can’t save money on maintenance. I use synthetic oil. I change it once a year. I’ve changed the coolant once in the 5 years I’ve lived here and I think about every 2 or 3 years is more than sufficient. Obviously, an air cooled won’t even have coolant. Then there’s an oil filter and an air filter. Oil filter gets changed with the oil and the air filter has been change once. I’m thinking that will be on the same schedule as the coolest, just because. I think both the coolant and the air filter could go 5 years with no problem. Eventually you may have to change out spark plugs. Not sure when I’ll do that. Of course if I had a major event or a particularly bad year, I may do the oil sooner. Overall usage certainly matters.

The bottom line is that these are either small car engines or large lawn mower like engines. There’s no reason a handy person can’t maintain them and maybe even do some basic repairs if needed. For example, I had to put a new battery in mine the year after I bought the house. $300 for annual maintenance is more than half labor. Probably $200 labor and $100 for parts.

Oh, parts. The Generac oil filter is way more expensive than the NAPA Gold oil filter that cross references. Don’t automatically buy the generator branded part.

 

[pjigar]

BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.

Like I said, generators are for convenience for me so cost is a personal preference. Having said, I choose a 10KW generator simply because of the cost concerns.



I have alternate means of heating (wood burning fireplace and onsite propane) but generator can also mean safety to some people e.g. some in Texas had low natural gas pressure AND no electricity, or people who solely rely on electricity for heating, etc. At the end of the day, everyone has to see what energy sources they have and which can go out of service AT THE SAME TIME when disaster strikes. If answer is all energy sources then generator is required for safety. Safety is priceless in my book.

 

[folivier]

Having lived my entire life in the hurricane belt I've only had a generator once. It was a PTO generator that I attached to my tractor and used that twice for a week or 2 after major storms. I also worked mostly in the natural gas pipeline industry and would see the pressure on our pipelines when the offshore wells would shut down whenever a hurricane would enter the gulf. Also during winter storms we would be fighting to keep our measurement and distribution facilities from freezing up. Wherever there is a restriction in a pipeline you have a pressure drop and that is where a shutdown could occur.
That said if I would ever buy a whole house automatic generator I would also want a controller that in addition to automatically starting anytime the power goes out it would have a timer so that it does not run continuously but runs for a couple hours then shuts off, and repeats that cycle until power is restored. This would keep refrigerators, freezers, heaters or air conditioners running enough to prevent problems. The value in this is if you're away traveling or have evacuated there is no need for your generator to run continuously. But no company offers these or is interested in developing these.
So in the event of a hurricane my motorhome with its 10kw generator is our savior.

 

[Jerry1]

I would ever buy a whole house automatic generator I would also want a controller that in addition to automatically starting anytime the power goes out it would have a timer so that it does not run continuously but runs for a couple hours then shuts off, and repeats that cycle until power is restored.

I do something like that but it’s manual, so not able to be done if you’re not home. I shut down the generator at night when I go to sleep. I may revisit that policy if I lost electricity in the middle of winter. Usually around here, electricity goes out due to storms with high winds reeking havoc on the grid.

 

[splitwdw]

BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.

I just started using a service contractor last year and a 1 year contract is $250. in Eastern Pennsylvania. Before that I did all the maintenance and repairs. I had the controller go bad about 3 years ago and replaced it myself, 4 screws and a couple of connectors were all that held it in place. I replace the battery every 3 years.
The test run is whatever you set your generator to run. Ours, which is an older Generac whole house generator, you can set the self-test for the day & time plus weekly, biweekly, monthly for 10 to 20 minutes. It's testing the generator to make sure that everything is in running order. On the display I can see any alerts the system posts plus check the battery voltage and other settings. I look at the display once a week when I'm taking out the trash.

 

[ncbill]

But it's not like you have to leave an air cooled unit running non-stop for days at a time. Run it for an hour or two to let the fridge and freezer run a couple cycles and so the HW tank can heat up, then turn it off for a while. Food will be perfectly fine in a fridge or freezer that is 1 hour on, 3 hours off or 2 hours on, 4 hours off.

And of course, if you're worried about pipes freezing then the fridge and freezer will require even less power to maintain temperature. If it's cold enough to freeze pipes then it's cold enough to keep food from spoiling.

A large chest freezer needs even less generator runtime, according to one outdoor author I've read who lived off-grid in the 1970s.

He would run his diesel generator only one hour daily in the morning for all the electric needs of the day.

Which included pumping water from the well to the cistern & keeping a couple of large chest freezers (no fridge, IIRC) running at proper temperature.

 

[sengsational]

It looks like there are solutions separated by an order of magnitude: $200 (inverter and extension cords), $2,000 (roll-out generator and transfer switch) or $20,000 (full-blown "call the man" and don't even know or care if the power goes out). Obviously the pricing is more continuous than that, but generally speaking, that's kind of what I see.

I've been in this location 25 years and I only remember one time when we lost power in the winter and the house got cold. We lit the (very inefficient) natural gas fireplace and hung out in the living room. Cooked outdoors with propane. Still had hot showers (gas water heater). If I could have added just the gas furnace and refrigerator, I would have been perfectly happy to continue that long-term (weeks). That event lasted maybe 24 or 36 hours.

All that said, I really think it would be fun to go into a "power it all" whole house solution, but just can't justify it. Certainly more convenient, it would make the neighbors envious (hehehe), would be a cool project to "blow the dough", but given the low likelihood of use as well as being 2 orders of magnitude more than the minimum effective solution, the cheapskate in me just can't hang with it.

Then the intermediate solution (generator) just makes it a little less like camping over the most basic solution. An upgrade from extension cords to a transfer switch would mean a rather messy install, in my case (the panel is in a finished room). And I'd need to store the generator somewhere. Since my under house storage and shed both have an occasional condensation problem, I'd need to address that, which would add to project. Although it would be nice to not have to run one device at a time, it's a log increase in price over the most basic solution.

 

[Music Lover]

A large chest freezer needs even less generator runtime, according to one outdoor author I've read who lived off-grid in the 1970s.

He would run his diesel generator only one hour daily in the morning for all the electric needs of the day.

Which included pumping water from the well to the cistern & keeping a couple of large chest freezers (no fridge, IIRC) running at proper temperature.

That's bit more extreme than I'd like but the basic idea is there. Our house, for example is in an extreme cold climate...but it's also very well insulated. In an extended power failure (we've never had one in my entire life) on the coldest time of the year I could get by with generating power 1 hour every 4-6 hours, mostly to run the furnace.

 

[CRLLS]

From what I read, car alternators will put out somewhere between 25% and maybe 50% of their rated capability at idle. Assuming a car has a 100A alternator, At 25-50Amps that is only 375-750 watts. Figure a loss of 10% in an inverter gets somewhere around 350-700 watts of available AC power. Don't be surprised if a car cannot supply more than that, no matter what the inverter is rated at. One would have to run faster than idle in order to get the full 1000W. Even then, the inverter may not support the startup current requirement of a motor driven device. Be sure you can return the inverter if it doesn't do what you desire.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

From what I read, car alternators will put out somewhere between 25% and maybe 50% of their rated capability at idle. Assuming a car has a 100A alternator, At 25-50Amps that is only 375-750 watts. Figure a loss of 10% in an inverter gets somewhere around 350-700 watts of available AC power. Don't be surprised if a car cannot supply more than that, no matter what the inverter is rated at. One would have to run faster than idle in order to get the full 1000W. Even then, the inverter may not support the startup current requirement of a motor driven device. Be sure you can return the inverter if it doesn't do what you desire.

I would agree that it would be a very bad idea to power a device that ran continuously at 700 watts or more, for a period of time (like a space heater running at 750 watts), since the alternator is going to be madly running continuously trying to charge the battery and that'll likely shorten the alternator's life (perhaps considerably).

 

[NW-Bound]

You do not want to overload the alternator, and burn it out.

I happened to see some reports about alternators in boats and RVs getting burned up when the owners use stock alternators to charge lithium batteries. What happened was that a lithium battery can soak up a huge amount of current compared to lead-acid batteries, causing alternator failures.

A common alternator failure in the above scenario is overheating. It so happens that at low speeds, the alternator fan does not generate enough airflow to cool itself.

Here, we are talking about using the stock lead-acid battery, and not a lithium battery. However, the load presented to an alternator by an inverter can be really bad, particularly with one rated at 2 kW. Such an inverter can draw more than 150A, a current far exceeds what most alternators can put out. If the set up is used to run just a fridge and some electronics drawing 500W or less, one can get away with it. Resist attempt to plug in a space heater, or a large motor.

Following is a video by Victron Energy, a premier maker of inverters for use in boats and RVs, which talks about overheating an alternator running at low speeds.

 

[Texas Proud]

BTW, since no one's mentioned it, some quick google searches indicate the life expectancy of a whole house generator is 20-40 years, assuming it's well maintained.

So, assuming the total initial cost (unit + installation) is $12,000 and there's a $300 yearly service fee, and it lasts 30 years, the total cost of ownership is $21,000. I'm being optimistic that no repairs are needed and the yearly service fee doesn't increase.

Plus, it seems these units typically need to run in test mode for 15 minutes each week, so that ends up being 390 hours over 30 years. So there's some fuel costs for that.


So YMMV, maybe you save money not throwing food away / broken pipes / basement flooding / comfort / convenience / safety.

Or you can roll the dice and put the $12k in a Total Stock Market index fund, and add $300 to it each year, and end up with a tidy sum of money after 30 years (feel free to plug the numbers into an investment calculator).

No right or wrong answer IMO. Life is like a box of chocolates.

The question is do I want to have more money to leave to my heirs or do I want to be comfortable during power outages...


My brother was without electricity for over 3 days... it was so cold in his apartment (so no generator for him) that he just opened his fridge to keep his food cold...


Plus, of the 6 kids of my parents, 4 had outages 3 days for more (3 in Texas 1 in Oregon)... the grid is probably going to be worse going forward no matter what assurances are given considering the load that will be placed on it.... especially when everybody has to plug in their car...


It is always a trade-off when buying anything... do the same math for a new car etc. etc...

 

[Big_Hitter]

My brother was without electricity for over 3 days... it was so cold in his apartment (so no generator for him) that he just opened his fridge to keep his food cold...

https://bestclassicbands.com/gene-taylor-musician-obituary-blasters-2-21-21/

Gene died of hypothermia, seriously, hypothermia, in Austin? When I moved from the gulf coast I made sure my parents had a residential standby generator installed for their safety and well being. My Mom never ran out of heat or electricity last month, plus she uses a nebulizer.

I can't believe people are getting worksheets out for this.

 

[kjpliny]

https://bestclassicbands.com/gene-taylor-musician-obituary-blasters-2-21-21/

Gene died of hypothermia, seriously, hypothermia, in Austin? When I moved from the gulf coast I made sure my parents had a residential standby generator installed for their safety and well being. My Mom never ran out of heat or electricity last month, plus she uses a nebulizer.

I can't believe people are getting worksheets out for this.

I agree. My longer term goal after retiring and moving to a lower cost area is to have at least a few acres of land and a home with a decent sized solar roof array, large battery backup, and also a backup generator just in case power is out for extended periods and the solar can't keep up due to poor weather. Losing power for extended periods isn't fun. Our electrical grid is also prone to issues as it ages and more population demand is added to it.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

As has been mentioned several times in this thread, there are other options besides doing nothing and spending $10-$20 thousand on a whole house generator.

As my local weather forecaster mused when her power went out, "I could spend a LOT of nights at the Hilton for the cost of a whole house generator". Although a little tongue in check, there's some logic there too (assuming the outage is localized and hotels are available).

The events in Texas were unfortunate and tragic. Ironically, having a natural gas generator wouldn't have fared well given the gas problems. Gasoline portable generators would've faired better IF you had stockpiled a lot of gasoline ahead of time. Having a large propane tank and system was probably the best combination this time.

It's hard to anticipate all calamities in life. In the event of a flood, a portable generator can be easily moved to higher ground ahead of time. Like in the back of the used pickup truck you bought instead of a $12k generator.

 

[Jerry1]

In my surfing today, I came across this story. The guy converts a large portable gasoline generator to a natural gas whole house generator. Says he did it for around $2,500.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/di...e-of-whole-home-generator-at-fraction-of-cost

I like how he put it in a box and included a ventilation/cooling fan.