|
|
|
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!
Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!
|
12-09-2010, 08:44 AM
|
#142
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49
Posts: 7,677
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies
|
The counter attacks certainly seemed to indicate that the Wikileaks backers are anarchists.
__________________
For the fun of it...Keith
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 10:27 AM
|
#143
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies
|
The anti-wikens are showing their true colors. This isn't about Freedom of Press; it's about promoting fascism and suspending the Bill of Rights.
WikiLeaks website pulled by Amazon after US political pressure | Media | The Guardian
I say they should move to somewhere more amenable to their views such as, say, Myanmar. YMMV.
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 11:51 AM
|
#144
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
|
Isn't Amazon expressing their right to Free Speech? They don't have the right to say what does and does not go on their site? Could I put up political posters on your front lawn, and then claim you are violating my "Free Speech" if you take them down?
The wikileaks guy can put his stuff up on his own site until it is found to be illegal (like screaming "FIRE" in a theater).
-ERD50
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 12:06 PM
|
#145
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Isn't Amazon expressing their right to Free Speech? They don't have the right to say what does and does not go on their site? Could I put up political posters on your front lawn, and then claim you are violating my "Free Speech" if you take them down?
The wikileaks guy can put his stuff up on his own site until it is found to be illegal (like screaming "FIRE" in a theater).
-ERD50
|
Seriously?
Perhaps you missed the part where a sitting Senator, who also happens to chair the Homeland Security committee, made a call to Amazon? I'm sure he was only calling as a concerned citizen and didn't even tell Amazon who he was ("Hello, this is Senator Joe Lieb...er, I'm a concerned citizen calling about your hosting of Wikileaks.")
Maybe you didn't hear that the government, which IS constricted by the Bill of Rights, is now censoring Wikileaks at the Library of Congress?
Library of Congress Blocks WikiLeaks Site Access
To answer your question, of course Amazon can do what they want. It's when the government gets involved that it becomes a Constitutional problem.
Believing that the government isn't involved is an act of willing blindness.
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 12:26 PM
|
#146
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Seriously?
Perhaps you missed the part where a sitting Senator, who also happens to chair the Homeland Security committee, made a call to Amazon? I'm sure he was only calling as a concerned citizen and didn't even tell Amazon who he was ("Hello, this is Senator Joe Lieb...er, I'm a concerned citizen calling about your hosting of Wikileaks.")
Maybe you didn't hear that the government, which IS constricted by the Bill of Rights, is now censoring Wikileaks at the Library of Congress?
Library of Congress Blocks WikiLeaks Site Access
To answer your question, of course Amazon can do what they want. It's when the government gets involved that it becomes a Constitutional problem.
Believing that the government isn't involved is an act of willing blindness.
|
I thought the 1st Amendment prohibit Congress from passing laws infringing on free of speech and press. I wasn't aware that it prevented Senators either a private citizen or chairman of committee from expressing their views and preferences. Does Lieberman give up his 1st amendment rights because he is a Senator?
More importantly why shouldn't the government be involved in this? A fair number of people on both sides of the aisle believe that WikiLeaks is a threat to our national security. I'd argue that "the common defense" is one of the most important government functions.
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 12:34 PM
|
#147
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Seriously? ...
To answer your question, of course Amazon can do what they want. It's when the government gets involved that it becomes a Constitutional problem.
Believing that the government isn't involved is an act of willing blindness.
|
I haven't read the details of the govt involvement in Amazon's decision, so not willing blindness but I will plead ignorance (and/or just laziness as so much journalism doesn't give me the data I need). It could definitely be a problem, depending on the details.
I was assuming Amazon did this freely, based on info they received from the govt, and that assumption could be wrong. If the govt alerted me to a potential problem that was under my control, and I decided to take action, that isn't censorship. That may or may not be the case here, I dunno.
-ERD50
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 12:46 PM
|
#148
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
|
erdianus - OK, I got unlazy enough to read far enough to get this:
Quote:
The company announced it was cutting WikiLeaks off yesterday only 24 hours after being contacted by the staff of Joe Lieberman, chairman of the Senate's committee on homeland security.
....
Although there are echoes of the censorship row between Google and China earlier this year, constitutional lawyers insisted it was not a first amendment issue because Amazon is a private company, free to make its own decisions.
....
Lieberman said: "[Amazon's] decision to cut off WikiLeaks now is the right decision and should set the standard for other companies WikiLeaks is using to distribute its illegally seized material. ....
The department of homeland security confirmed Amazon's move, referring journalists to Lieberman's statement.
|
Seems reasonable to me. This stuff is stolen material. If Amazon was alerted that one of their merchants was peddling stolen material, I think they would shut them down. What's the problem?
-ERD50
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 12:52 PM
|
#149
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp
I thought the 1st Amendment prohibit Congress from passing laws infringing on free of speech and press. I wasn't aware that it prevented Senators either a private citizen or chairman of committee from expressing their views and preferences. Does Lieberman give up his 1st amendment rights because he is a Senator?
More importantly why shouldn't the government be involved in this? A fair number of people on both sides of the aisle believe that WikiLeaks is a threat to our national security. I'd argue that "the common defense" is one of the most important government functions.
|
It applies to the government and not solely to Congress. As for Senators calling private businesses, we'll never know if it was a violation of the Bill of Rights without a leak.
It could've been,
"This is Senator Lieberman's office and we think it violates laws."
Amazon: Oh, we didn't realize. We'll check on that.
Or it could've been,
"This is Senator Lieberman's office. We'd like you to take it down. Oh, by the way, the Senator is still undecided on the internet sales tax issue."
Amazon:...
Or it could've been,
"This is Senator Lieberman's office. Take it down or DOJ lawyers will be all over your offices within an hour."
Amazon: Wikileaks down! STAT!
Of course, we all know that Senators are upstanding politicians and would never use their positions of power illegally but aren't you a little bit concerned?
A simple threat to "national security" isn't a reason to censor Wikileaks. That was decided in NYT v. US (1971).
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 12:56 PM
|
#150
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Seems reasonable to me. This stuff is stolen material. If Amazon was alerted that one of their merchants was peddling stolen material, I think they would shut them down. What's the problem?
-ERD50
|
First, the good Senator doesn't decide what can be published or not. That's for a court to decide.
Second, the Pentagon Papers were stolen too. We know how that ended.
I'm sure Amazon didn't want to face an expensive lawsuit brought by the feds. It was a wise business decision on their part. That's not what this is about though.
Edit: Obviously the cables were stolen originally. They're now in the hands of a media organization however.
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 01:22 PM
|
#151
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,733
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
It applies to the government and not solely to Congress. As for Senators calling private businesses, we'll never know if it was a violation of the Bill of Rights without a leak.
It could've been,
"This is Senator Lieberman's office and we think it violates laws."
Amazon: Oh, we didn't realize. We'll check on that.
Or it could've been,
"This is Senator Lieberman's office. We'd like you to take it down. Oh, by the way, the Senator is still undecided on the internet sales tax issue."
Amazon:...
Or it could've been,
"This is Senator Lieberman's office. Take it down or DOJ lawyers will be all over your offices within an hour."
Amazon: Wikileaks down! STAT!
Of course, we all know that Senators are upstanding politicians and would never use their positions of power illegally but aren't you a little bit concerned?
A simple threat to "national security" isn't a reason to censor Wikileaks. That was decided in NYT v. US (1971).
|
The last example maybe some type of abuse of power, but I am not sure what is wrong with first two examples. There isn't a law involved in any of the cases. Or are you claiming the Senator Lieberman doesn't have the constitutional right to express his opinions ? My understanding that NYT vs US involved prior restraint against published material. I am sure there is some relevance between the Pentagon papers and the Wikileaks case, but there are many differences starting with the fact the Assange isn't a US citizen, he may or may not be journalist/member of the press. The courts may ultimately rule that government has overstepped it authority in how it deals with wikileaks, but if Wikileaks is in fact to national security, I rather the government fight the website now and pay for damage later. Than do nothing.
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 04:39 PM
|
#152
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,244
|
From the news last night....
They are attacking Visa/Mastercard/Paypal because they cut off supporters from donating to Wikileaks...
Now, the reporter said they were supposed to cut off funding since the gvmt put Wikileaks on some terrorist list... (not sure if I heard it right, so don't hold me to this)....
I think it a bit much to put Wikileaks on a terrorist list since a bunch of the 'normal' media sites are reporting on what they find in the disclosures.... should the NYT be on the terror list
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 06:52 PM
|
#153
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
|
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 07:37 PM
|
#154
|
gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Edit: Obviously the cables were stolen originally. They're now in the hands of a media organization however.
|
So that makes them unstolen? Wonder how that works at a pawnshop.
|
|
|
12-09-2010, 07:49 PM
|
#155
|
gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
|
My true colors are red, white and blue... Yours?
Bottom line is that classified documents were obtained illegally and posted online by a "twisted little freak" (Thanks Leonidas!) with an anti-US agenda. I'm glad that Amazon, Visa, and MC did the right thing by suspending payments for stolen materials.
How did Hope and Change morph into facism, I thought we were past all that...?
But, so you can step up and support this important cause, here's how you can put your money where your mouth is:
Philadelphia mobile payments firm steps up for WikiLeaks | ITworld
I'm fine here in the US, thanks. Our Government is doing it's job on this one, in my opinion. Maybe Mr. Assange can suggest somewhere more amenable to your views; I hear he may be needing some outside help soon...
|
|
|
12-10-2010, 12:37 AM
|
#156
|
Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 255
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
erdianus - OK, I got unlazy enough to read far enough to get this:
Seems reasonable to me. This stuff is stolen material. If Amazon was alerted that one of their merchants was peddling stolen material, I think they would shut them down. What's the problem?
-ERD50
|
I don't like the term "stolen". It was illegally COPIED. And not by Wikileaks. Courts have already ruled (a la Pentagon Papers) that news outlets can legally publish illegally obtained materials (assuming the news organization did not do the illegal copying). And to my knowledge Wikileaks has been charged with no crimes. Whatever happened to freedom of speech?
|
|
|
12-10-2010, 07:15 AM
|
#157
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,896
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfdaddy
I don't like the term "stolen". It was illegally COPIED. And not by Wikileaks. Courts have already ruled (a la Pentagon Papers) that news outlets can legally publish illegally obtained materials (assuming the news organization did not do the illegal copying). And to my knowledge Wikileaks has been charged with no crimes. Whatever happened to freedom of speech?
|
I'm not a lawyer, I don't know. But those are the words in the article that was pointed to, so I'm just commenting based on that. Illegally seized, illegally copied, stolen - is there a meaningful difference? There is a lot of speculating going on, and some seem to be giving the wikileaks guy the benefit of every doubt, while assuming the worst on all counts from other parties.
We will see. Or, for the conspiracy theorists, we never will.
-ERD50
|
|
|
12-10-2010, 08:30 AM
|
#158
|
Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 996
|
According to this article, Wikileaks has kept it's donor list secret in the past except for the noted gaffe. Do they still keep their donor list secret? I've not been able to find out yet. With their apparent anti U.S. slant I'd like to know where their funding is coming from.
Wikileaks Forced to Leak Its Own Secret Info — Update | Threat Level | Wired.com
Could some of our enemies be supporting them?
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
(In other words, no whining!)
|
|
|
12-10-2010, 08:38 AM
|
#159
|
gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTravlin
According to this article, Wikileaks has kept it's donor list secret in the past except for the noted gaffe. Do they still keep their donor list secret? I've not been able to find out yet. With their apparent anti U.S. slant I'd like to know where their funding is coming from.
Wikileaks Forced to Leak Its Own Secret Info — Update | Threat Level | Wired.com
Could some of our enemies be supporting them?
|
Good Point!
His donor list, detailing the names, addresses, email addresses, contribution amounts and account numbers used for contributions of all Wiki contributors should immediately be published online.
Anything less is facism and suspending the Bill of Rights...
|
|
|
12-13-2010, 04:49 PM
|
#160
|
gone traveling
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
|
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
Similar Threads
|
Thread |
Thread Starter |
Forum |
Replies |
Last Post |
Friend's Politics
|
winger |
FIRE Related Public Policy |
32 |
05-02-2010 05:09 PM |
No Politics
|
Rustic23 |
Other topics |
52 |
08-01-2007 05:47 PM |
|
» Recent Threads
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
» Quick Links
|
|
|